League Rundown - Episode 553: First Team Standing, hit the lights

[00:00:11] Speaker A: The amazing gets hit. Kimmy kids a little too far here. He's gonna have to try and get himself out. Let me go. Tillery and the rest of the shots of fire. Zion is just killing the next. Zion can eat it single handedly win the game by game by game by game by should be. Oh my God. Stupid. Passes through and manages to the table with Messiah tanking it up. I do not believe he just believe. I cannot understand this game. Unicorns of love. It wasn't a mutant. The Nexus. Hello and welcome to episode 553 of the League Rundown. This is your 2025 First Stand Finals review. And this episode is lovingly entitled First Team Standing. Hit the lights. I am your host, Kangas. And I'm joined by two esteemed co hosts. Up first, we have. Fresh out of the can, it's Badger. [00:01:27] Speaker B: I was trying to think of a First Strike joke and unfortunately the turn out the lights. The party is over on this one. So we move on to the next thing. [00:01:37] Speaker A: Well, it's good thing that you didn't spend too much time thinking of first strike because it's called First Stand, not First Strike. I know. [00:01:43] Speaker B: That's. I. It's. It's my last chance to call. That was part of the joke for the first Strike for the year. So. [00:01:48] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. Well, that's strike one on you right now. But coming in after, we have rmc, minions of Spawn. [00:01:58] Speaker C: And why stand when you can sit? I'd rather be first team sitting right now. [00:02:03] Speaker A: We were. We were the first. Wait a. Damn it. That would have been a banger tweet. Oh, dude, why do you got to give your best material after the fact? Man, that would have popped off on Reddit. Don't worry. [00:02:15] Speaker C: I guess we've always got Nixie. [00:02:17] Speaker A: Oh, no. Oh, no. Also, knowing the collective zeitgeist of League of Legends, I. Somebody had to have made that joke. There's no way you're that funny compared to everybody else. Although I wouldn't be too surprised. All right, well, that's it for the cast. Today we're going to talk all about the First Stand semifinals and finals, because that's all that happened over the last weekend. And then we have a fun little game. I teased it in last week's episode. Also, shout out to anybody who made it through last week's episode. We thought we had a fix for my audio and that we were going to use a good mic. Turns out that did work and ended up being my AirPod audio the entire time. You're a real one. If you made it through, I understand if that was too much for you to handle and you would rather not bleed from your ears. So. But we'll try and figure out a fix for that later. But we teased last week on the episode that we're gonna do a fun little game this week that RMC came up with. So RMC is just full of creative ideas. Happy that we get a run with one of them now where we're going to build rosters using only one player from each team of the teams represented at first stand. So up first though is some news. Let's cover that globally. It is confirmed last week we talked about it that Mark Z had teased an announcement about changing to the format. But now it is official. Not only is Fearless drafting here to stay permanently, that has now been officially confirmed by Lowell eSports, but the LTA social account said this will cause for changes to the format of Split two. New information coming soon. TM so let's take predictions. Badger, what are your predictions for the format changes? I think best of three is like the obvious one, right? But like, do you think double round robin, single round robin, like any funky things? [00:04:07] Speaker B: I mean, ideally in an ideal world it's best if three round robin, but we don't live in an ideal world at this point. So unfortunately I think we'll get the best of threes but we won't get the double round robin. [00:04:19] Speaker A: Okay. All right, so you're holding off on that rmc, what do you think? Any predictions? [00:04:24] Speaker C: I predict that we are going to get. Okay, so first we got teased that there was going to be something changing and then we got teased after. Then we got told it's going to be full fearless and teased that there's going to be other changes. So I predict that we're going to get some sort of change with another tease and then we won't find out what's going on till the very first day of LTA North. [00:04:45] Speaker A: You know what that not knowing what's actually going to happen until the day before is probably the most on brand. I unfortunately know what's going to happen so I can't make a prediction because I'm a good broadcaster and I'm not going to leak any information. [00:05:00] Speaker C: Okay. If it's going to be a best if it's going to be a single. [00:05:04] Speaker A: Round robin, I'm against the wall, man. [00:05:08] Speaker C: Okay, I guess. Badgers, it's going to be a double round. [00:05:11] Speaker A: No, no. Damn it. Got me. No, I'm not confirming any information, but if I had If I were to make a joke prediction again, I want to hammer it home. This is a joke prediction. We're the only region that doesn't do fearless. We actually say, fuck that. We're gonna do best of ones single round robin. That's what everyone wants. In fact, another bracket. Let's do the same bracket that we did last time. It went over really well. [00:05:40] Speaker B: That's. That's what. That's what the people want. [00:05:43] Speaker A: That's what the people want. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. No, keep your eyes on socials. I'm hoping that by next week's episode we will be able to actually talk about what the changes are. I will say I think thumbs up. Cool. Neat. Neat is what I'll say. There we go. Other information, other global news. Sticking with NA information here. We had a retirement happen this past week and it's one of the goats. It's one of the OG's. Badger not going to be able to cheer for this guy anymore. Who is he? [00:06:16] Speaker B: Wild Turtle with the quadro. Wild Turtle with the pan. [00:06:21] Speaker A: You're in trouble. [00:06:22] Speaker B: I mean, Chaos retired years ago at this point, so that's. That's irrelevant at the moment, but it is what it is. [00:06:27] Speaker A: True. Yeah. Wild Turtle has been around in the scene for way longer than I have. Longer than most people that still stick with League of Legends. Shout out to any OGs that do remember his debut game where he got that pentakill? [00:06:40] Speaker C: Well, no, that was his debut in the lcs. But Waltorto actually predates the lcs. [00:06:45] Speaker B: Yes, he does. [00:06:46] Speaker C: He was a mid laner. [00:06:48] Speaker B: He played. He was a mid laner with the original, like Cloud 9 Core. And then he played AD for TSM and they brought Sneaky in from another team. [00:06:57] Speaker C: I think the first professional game he had was as a sub for TSM, for Reggie in one of the IPLs way back in the day. And he played Rise and I can't remember who the other one he played was, but he won. [00:07:09] Speaker B: All I know is 14 years is what this dude was in the league. And I'm like, damn, that's a weird thing to think about. [00:07:18] Speaker A: I did not actually, honest to God, did not know about his history before that debut. TSM 80 carry game. But yeah, I mean, that. What, what a history to have this. [00:07:27] Speaker C: Is like for both TSM and clg. Actually, before he. Yeah, I think it was the clg. [00:07:34] Speaker A: I have to like him now. [00:07:34] Speaker C: Second roster. I forget what the. Was it CL crap? I've got the name of the second roster. The second NA roster. [00:07:41] Speaker A: CLG red. No, that. Was that the EU one? [00:07:43] Speaker C: Was it red? No, the cog, the EU and then the clg. It's either red or black. [00:07:49] Speaker A: Red. Actually black does sound kind of. Again, I didn't watch back then, but just tangentially I've heard like stories from CLG folk about stuff like that, but either way, Wild Turtle officially announced his retirement. He was working with Shopify as kind of like a positional coach. Slash like player coach. He had competed. He. He was playing last year. Right. Didn't bevoy replace him after like got visa issue short sorted. But while. Yeah, got a couple games. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. So yeah, rip to one of the goats. It's always hard to say goodbye but you know, it's. There's a lot of competition, there's a lot of young blood coming into the scene, players like Yan, players like Masu, that it's. It's tough to have the drive to keep competing and keep at the level you have to be to take spots away from guys like that are also on the come up and. And looking for spots and there's less spots than ever right now, so. [00:08:41] Speaker C: True. But hey, if we're talking about young blood coming up to challenge Ball Turtle, I heard there's some new, new talent coming through the NACL pipeline. There's a team called Near Airport which has a lot of hopes. [00:08:51] Speaker A: Oh, I heard about them. [00:08:52] Speaker C: They're 80 carry. Supposed to be some hot stuff, dude. [00:08:54] Speaker A: A lot of really promising players. A lot of really promising players. There's one in the mid lane. I think maybe he got like a couple of games at like Tier one, maybe as a sub or something. PO Belter. [00:09:06] Speaker C: Yeah, the Notorious po. [00:09:08] Speaker A: Notorious pob The Jungler. He's pretty washed actually. Speak here that his team is still sleeping somewhere at Worlds top lane. TF blade support is BioDaddy and then 80 carry. Double lift. That's right near airport. Confirmed for the NACL. Great segue RMC. Now give a little context for the listeners about like why this is a big deal that they're here because maybe they weren't going to be. [00:09:41] Speaker C: Yeah. So this year, for those of you who might not follow North American Tier 2 and Tier 3 for the first time. Tier 2 has been. You qualify into Tier 2 into the NACL through an open qualifier, which I believe was a 64 team tournament. Anybody could apply. And so of course the savior of NA had to apply and make a team. By which I mean TF Blade. No, I'm kidding. Doublelift had to make a team of former pros and all that to actually qualify through. And they smashed. They dominated the Open qualifiers into Tier 2. But there was some question marks of whether they were actually going to compete in Tier 2 because I believe Biofrost is in school right now, so there was some potential scheduling issues. I know doublelift was quite outspoken about that. So the fact that they have decided to actually play an NACL is going to be a really cool thing in that. Yes, it's a whole bunch of experts. But I do think having, you know we always talk about like oh how good are these players nowadays? But we're about to find out. Are they better than our upcoming talent? [00:10:38] Speaker A: Yeah, this is the time to prove it. Because a lot of like people just watch doublelift stream they cheers for him on TSM Team Liquid and then left when he did. Probably don't even know who Masu is or right. Okay, that's a little higher level. They definitely don't know who freaking lens is down at the NACL level. So we'll see if if any of those guys down there can compet I will say near report was performing better at the oqs than I expected. They did not drop a single game on their way to qualify through the Open Qualifier tournament and make it into the nacl. I don't know if a team has done that before. The OQs have been going on for about two years now because NACL is like a promotion relegation tournament where you can lose your spot in the league to a team from the open qualifiers coming in. And now it actually goes up too. It's a really cool like kind of joint league where you can promote into it from the OQs. You can also promote into the LTA at the end of the year. A fight for a disguised toasts team. But yeah, the very impressive that they were able to do it. I didn't think they could honestly, but they proved me very wrong. Very, very wrong. But yeah, that's all the global news that we have for right now. Let us know if we missed anything. I know that's we. We just didn't get any EU news. I know that there were things happening but just in the sa. I didn't have enough time to throw that information in here on the dock. We'll cover a lot of the EU stuff going into next week's episode but I know that like roster shakeups and stuff are happening over there too. So keep your ears peeled for future updates there. But if there is anything that you want to talk about in the immediate future. Join our community Discord. You can find a link in the description wherever you are listening and if you want to help support the pod. We have a Patreon and we have a Merch Shop League Rundown Shop. Appreciate anything that you throw our way and also happy to have you join the community. But with that said, let's get in to First Stand Finals weekend. The first international tournament of the year. The first time we've ever seen this exact tournament. Don't blink. It's not MSI from 2015 to 2018. It's a completely different thing, wholly unique to the tournament. [00:12:59] Speaker B: Behind the curtain. [00:13:00] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, built on the shoulder of giants. That's what this was. We had two semifinals and then one finals played out over the weekend and I had to catch these after the fact. I wasn't able to watch them all live because I was traveling. Hence why last week's episode audio was a little rough. But I'll be able to chime in with some of my thoughts from after the weekend. But I want to start off with the first series KC versus CFO and rmc. I'm going to tee you up for this one. How did things shake out in this best of five? [00:13:35] Speaker C: Not great. The oysters kind of went off a little bit in the beginning and not in a good way. They kind of spoiled. I I don't know what happened in game one and game two. It ended up going okay. Spoilers. It went up going the full five games but it they kind of shouldn't have. Game one, the final score was like 313. It felt like oysters just didn't show up and I don't know what on earth they were doing. They were just incredibly passive and just let the game happen to them. And Game two? When I saw that draft it looked like they got desperate and they were just like I don't know what this draft is. This isn't a typical flying oysters draft. So I was kind of like oh okay. They look really, really lost. Like Hong Kyo and Galio was kind of like why are we taking our mechanical mid laner and popping him on something that can't do anything? You know, like it. It was really weird. And then they finally woke up for game three and they almost did the reverse sweep. Game three and Game four that looked like more typical cfo, you know, like put doggo on something that can carry. Put Hong Kong on something more mechanical like the Akali, like the Chisana. Give Junja something that has a lot of agency like his Nidalee in game three. And yeah, they. They almost made it back. But props to Carmine Corp. As much as I have predicted them to not succeed, I think Carmine was the team that probably impressed me the most this tournament. Yes, Hanwha won it, but Carmine had the lowest expectations coming in for me and performed incredibly well. They actually clutched out. [00:14:57] Speaker A: Absolutely. And especially with I think a way that I didn't expect last week on the episode, I didn't think we would see much more surprises from Carmine core at this point. I was like, okay, just double down on what you're good at and I think you can still make finals. But like the Nila plus Senna combo, that's really exciting. Cool to see that. I mean, yes, it was versus Sari Yumi. So like those two are never going to be able to punish you for your weaknesses in the lane. But I still liked the fact that they were adapting like Caitlyn Karma. Really oppressive ranged bot lane versus the Kalista Renata, which a lot of people just kind of accepted. Oh, that's like the strongest bot lane. Yes, that's the one. The CFO one. And they were able to kind of find their leads. But I liked the creativity that Casey was bringing to the draft phase and. [00:15:46] Speaker C: Kalist and Targumas won that ball lane. I mean, it wasn't Doggo and Kai Wing who carried that particular game that was more honky on the Akali. So yeah, I do like that they've been doing that. They're willing to pull that out. Kalisp has that pocket Draven as well, which for some odd reason we're not seeing really any other ad carries pull out. So yeah, huge props to Casey. I think they deserve to win that series. Yeah. But it doesn't kind of take away my disappointment a little bit from the way CFO just cropped the bit in game one and Game two. [00:16:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And their story was so exciting because like this would have been such a big moment for the region. The first official year or split that the LCP exists. Remember that this is a brand new thing for them. Not only is LTA brand new, we had a whole final completed merger of all of the teams from their kind of regions coming together there. What was the last one? Was it vc? VCS was the last one to be added or was it PCs? [00:16:42] Speaker C: So the LJL and VCS both got added into the PCs which had prior to that included the LCO Oceania as well as like the Southeast Asian region. [00:16:55] Speaker A: Yes. So now they're all under One umbrella. You think it's rough for North American fans and South American fans? You don't know nothing. Those different, like regions are fighting each other for what? One representative spot. And shout out to the Oysters. I think they. They can leave with their heads held high. They pushed Casey to the very brink. Almost made that finals. Would have been exciting to see, but Casey did it, baby. I mean, the. The European team, I said that they could be a dark horse in this tournament, and they started off shaky, but they really did turn it around. And Badger, I don't know if you, like at any point were thinking that KC were washed, but there were moments where it's like they could be the worst team at the event early on. And then I think it's cool at least to see them bounce back. [00:17:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:43] Speaker B: I mean, you. It's so. I think the big thing for. For Casey, for this tournament is just getting Vladdy and Callist that experience that can. Can. Yike and Targumas have already had throughout their careers up to this point. Just getting them that exposure, those deep playoff runs on international stage. I mean, even if it's just five teams, you still went to the finals and you played an LCK team and you. You showed your best performances against all of the other regions. I mean, besides the lck, we don't. We. We don't have to dwell on that too much. [00:18:22] Speaker C: There's another team that beat the blue wall here. Let's not forget that. [00:18:26] Speaker B: You're right. You're right. Hey, Na gra. We just don't talk about the rest of the tournament. So. [00:18:34] Speaker A: Second best team because of that. [00:18:37] Speaker B: But like, when you. When. When they picked Neela Senna in game five against Flying Oyster, I'm like, oh, so this is how they're. They're going out this series. Okay, like, yeah, all right, sure, like, whatever. So. But I. To what. To my surprise, they actually won that game. And then, I mean, we'll talk about it later. But them winning game one against Hanoi, I'm like, whoa, wait, hold on a second. Let's. Let's. Maybe I should pump the brakes on. Let him cook my EU hate train at the moment and see what's going on. And then balance and order was restored immediately after that. [00:19:22] Speaker A: True. [00:19:23] Speaker B: I still think it's. I still think it's a really good thing for this team going back into Europe. I mean, we've seen how the international success helped G2 for those years when they were. When they were at the peak of their power and they were winning MSI and They made world Finals and everything like that. I'm not going to say that. I'm not saying that's the same case that can be made for Casey here. But just like you got these two promising young players in your carry roles on this team and just getting them that extra exposure to the best competition in the world is going to do wonders for this team going through the rest of the year. [00:20:00] Speaker A: Absolutely. I mean, like, what, it was Bwipo's first year that they made finals, right? Was it Caps's first year or was it a second? [00:20:08] Speaker B: Technically, that was his. Yeah, that was his second year because he joined in 17. [00:20:14] Speaker A: Okay. Yes, it's a while ago now, but like, yeah, those guys were young when they made that world's finals. And I think Casey, not to over hype, but I actually think it is relatively fair to draw some parallels of this is the furthest that EU has gotten at an international tournament in a long time. Yes, it's the first fearless tournament. Yes, it was single round robin into a, you know, knockout series. And you were arguably in on paper against the weakest region just because top esports kind of shat the bed. Still, LPL carries a lot of weight behind it, just as like a strength for a region. But hey, I still give it to him. Credit where it's due. So we'll keep our eyes closely on Casey going forward. Any final thoughts to wrap things up? RMC. [00:21:03] Speaker C: Yeah. So they're glad it's not a G2 struggle. Hold over the region. The blue wall stands strong, but there's a better wall than the blue wall. And that's the fourth wall. Leak-rundown shop.fourth wall.com. come and support the better wall by checking out the website and merch on that. On that website. [00:21:20] Speaker A: Wow. What a plug. What a plug. And also I forgot I was gonna plug it too. Happy that you reminded me because I was like, you know what? As soon as Badger said EU hate train, we need to get like a mug with Badger wearing a conductor hat that says like all aboard the EU hate train or something like that. You're the conductor. [00:21:40] Speaker B: The conductor of the EU hate train. You're right. It's been. It's been me the whole time. [00:21:45] Speaker A: It's the whole time. And he would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for Casey being good League of Legends kids on Casey. Pesky kids. [00:21:56] Speaker B: Those actual pesky kids. [00:21:58] Speaker A: Let's talk about the other side of that semifinal bracket. Because Casey, what's a finalist if you don't have an Opponent. Their opponent that they got to face was the winner of this best of five series. And wouldn't you know it, this one. This one's over pretty quickly. Badger, I'm gonna see you up to talk. [00:22:18] Speaker C: What. What other semifinals? I thought Hanma life was just automatically seated into ground levels. [00:22:22] Speaker A: No, technically this happened. Technically there is record of this series taking place. [00:22:28] Speaker C: Is this why Mizell isn't here? [00:22:30] Speaker A: I think so. Actually, no. Mizzell wishes he were here greatly so that he could probably yell at Toppy in their performance. But Badger instead, let's talk about the positive side because Hle made quick work. [00:22:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I was able to get a good night's sleep after watching the series. That was the. That was the positive that came out of this coast. [00:22:52] Speaker A: Damn. [00:22:54] Speaker B: Not waking up at the. In the wee hours in the morning. I mean, I was watching Formula one anyways, so like I knew I was going to be up at that point for the. The race and qualifying and everything. So it just made it the cherry on top that I could have this on my other monitor while going on. But this is. Remember the. Remember the MTV show Bully Beat Down? I feel like this is like the league equivalent of it at this point. I mean, none of these games were close. Like there's. Okay, let me. Game two. Peanut went 161 and 16 on VI and Zeka, 12 and 14 on Akali and a 29 minute game. [00:23:34] Speaker A: That game should have been over in 20 minutes. It was insane. [00:23:38] Speaker B: Peanut had 32 kp and a 29 minute game in an international semifinal against the team that just won the lpl. [00:23:48] Speaker A: Yep. [00:23:48] Speaker B: Do I need to say more or do or does that say that like. [00:23:52] Speaker A: I mean, props to 369 for trying to keep Top into that game, but that one was very much over very fast. And I would say the breakout performers in general. I. Peanut had a hell of a series here, dude. Like just across the board is Malkai. [00:24:08] Speaker B: He showed that he's not a fraud on the international stage. [00:24:11] Speaker A: Yeah, he did it. But also, I don't know if anybody else agrees with this. I think special shout out to Delight. Oh my God. It is a delight to watch this delight play the game. Oh my God. [00:24:24] Speaker B: Flight is so good. I. I kind of knew coming into this, like, okay, at some point delight's gonna break out and it's going to be a treat to see it. Especially after, you know, the Gen G discipline. I feel like I've mentioned this before, the Gen G disappointment, the Hanwha disappointment last year, just all the circumstances coming together. And having it be so that Delight is showing that probably the best support in the world right now. [00:24:53] Speaker A: Honestly, like best Engage support. I will say for sure Delight on Engage Champions is like his. Alistair should be perma band. Pick that against him. Do not let him get it and then let Fearless do the rest for you. But oh, that thing's fierce. And Crisp was not up to the test. Like, Crisp was constantly getting picked constantly. Even when he would look for his own Engages, he just was like the team wasn't there to follow him up. It really didn't feel like Top Esports was a well oiled machine. Like they were individually maybe decent players. But Jackie Love Crisp kept showing the weakness of like they were one of the worst bot lanes in this entire event and they did not fix it for the semi finals. Viper and Delight ran over them. And then again when it came time for HLE to Engage to fight, oh my God, they just pulled the trigger. At the same time, it's like watching a pack of wolves hunt like a llama. It's like not even fast. It's just like, yeah, but rmc, what were your. Your big takeaways from this one? Because we all expected HLE to win this one, but did they do it? Did they still impress you with how they did it, knowing the expectation? [00:26:05] Speaker C: So this is the problem. And I kind of remember I said this last week on the podcast, but I really do feel like first stand was about was a game of throws. It's like whichever team is throwing harder or performing worse more than who's performing better. And Hanwha Life. Hanwha Life was doing incredibly well. So when you combine a team, the. The team that is failing the worst with the team that is doing the best, you get these sort of games where it's like 38 to 14 score lines, you know, like just. It's absolutely. It's just a slaughter. And. And y'all brought up like Crisp kind of crapping fit. But I thought Kanavi was kind of puking over himself as well. Like he was just not there half the time. Like his early game pressure was completely negligible. And then when he tries to make any plays, it keeps getting stifled and stymied. And at some point I'm just like, why are you making a play here? Why are you going down to bot lane when bot lane's just getting run over? Like, go play for 369. He's the one guy who's not just dying, keeling over. If you can get 369 ahead, you @ least have somewhere to play through instead. Yeah, it felt like, you know, Kanabi just wanted to stay home in Korea and never want to go back to China. So he's trying to get his or his visa revoked. [00:27:09] Speaker A: Damn. Yeah, it's tough to see Top Esports bomb out anytime. It's LPL versus lck. Well, okay, I guess now we can't say anytime. Usually it's a banger. This was not a banger. This was a slaughter. And it was Hle making fast work of a continually slumping Top Esports that just couldn't get it together when it mattered. So that means Top Esports and LPL bowed out early. They were the third to sit, not the second, and definitely not the first. We got that one, baby. But the last to sit and the first to stand comes up with the finals. Hanwha Life Esports versus Car Mine Core. That's right. EU versus LCK at an international finals. He was only ever lost to LPL teams at international finals. Is this their time? Is this their moment? Is this where they can actually do it? Wait, Game one. Oh, they're getting slaughtered. Oh, it's not cool. They came back in game one. They actually won it. Holy. How'd they pull that out of their ass? And then the rest of the series happened. Yeah. [00:28:27] Speaker C: So here's my theory. Hanba life just got used to kind of smacking down on weak teams who didn't know what on earth they were doing. And then Carmine Corp comes along and actually plays the damn game. [00:28:39] Speaker A: And. And I think Delight, this was, like, the only bad Alistair game that I remember seeing from Delight here, where it started off strong, but then I will say the reason they lost that game is because they're fighting a dragon. It's fine. Everything's fine. Hle you don't have to push for more. And then Delight goes all in onto. I think he was trying to get onto Kalisp, but he wasn't quite able to make it. He's like, going through Vladi, who had Taliyah's like, rocks and everything. Targumas has the Rakan charm, and Delight just goes too far forward, doesn't land any kind of combo. Zeka tries to follow up and then gets popped on the azir. And then Kalis gets, like, a crazy old combo and, like, everyone dies. And it's like, oh. And then Casey just gotta run over the game over there. It's like, oh, no. That was like, one moment, one team fight that kind of caused all the dominoes to fall. So I don't even know if it's like they weren't used to T. Like they were just used to running over teams. It's just like they got overconfident. And we will win everything we look for because we have been. Which, you know. You know, actually, now that I say it, that is basically the same as what you're saying. But it was a moment that happened later in the game, not like early on, which I think is what woke them up for the rest of the series. Yeah. Do we want to talk about Game 2, though? Because HLE were able to bounce back. So, RMC, let's get your thoughts first on Game 2. Game 1 was a comeback to an extent for KC, but they didn't really get many opportunities in that game too. [00:30:17] Speaker C: Yeah. And game two just felt like a very typical. Like a bounce back game from Hanwha where they're like, okay, we're a little bit too sloppy. Game one, we played game two really by the book. It was just really, really standard. They were just slowly straggling out Carmine. The final score was 11 to 2. But when you look at how the game played out, it actually, it didn't feel like Hanwell was just. Just smacking Carmine around, which is a really steady game where they just accrued the kill here and there and just, you know, slowly got gold everywhere. But it was a very controlled game from Hanwa. At no point did it even feel like Carmine had any sort of way back into the game whatsoever. [00:30:54] Speaker A: Yeah, and I Badger, I don't know if you have any thoughts on this. This was the. The first in, unfortunately a string here of, I think Vladdy under performances or I don't even want to call it that. I just want to say Zeka just bodied him. Like, Zeka just popped out. [00:31:09] Speaker B: It's. This is so the. The Oyster series is an example of what happens when it goes really well for them. The. The Honda series is an example of what happens when they're playing against a more experienced team and they just get slapped around the entire time. I mean, second, just did a really good job of like, neutralizing Vladi in like, every single game to the point that game four, they're just like, just. Just play Gallio. [00:31:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:31:38] Speaker A: Don't die, Vladi. For the love of Gallio, stop dying. And you know, he kind of brought it back to Vladi's credit. But point the bot lane is what started to fall apart because, dude, the Grag is flex pick. That was kind of spicy. Did not expect to see Graga support. [00:31:58] Speaker B: It. It's the fact that we had the little flex come through was. Was fantastic. I. I love seeing stuff like this in international tournaments. I mean, when did they take it? They took it on two, right? Like two, three. [00:32:14] Speaker A: I'm not remembering exactly offhand what the draft order was for that one. [00:32:19] Speaker C: I just remember near the end it was really in. Yeah. [00:32:22] Speaker B: They took it four or five. [00:32:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:24] Speaker C: So they actually had. They basically showed their entire draft at that point when they picked the Gragas. So there was like no real flex. [00:32:29] Speaker A: Oh yeah. [00:32:30] Speaker C: I guess I remember it was like I was thinking, are they flexing? Is it Camille's support or is it Gragas support? That was like the only question I had for on most often. So it was pretty late. Yeah. [00:32:39] Speaker A: Oh, was it. Was that where the Cannon came as last pick for Casey? [00:32:44] Speaker B: No, Renata was the R5. [00:32:48] Speaker A: Renata was our five, which I thought. [00:32:49] Speaker C: Was not a great idea. Yeah, I think they were predicting a Camille support when they did that. [00:32:55] Speaker A: Interesting. Well, either way I think it's cool that they were able to pull that out because like let's even say they lose that game. Well, Dragus isn't pickable in the top lane for the next so. [00:33:06] Speaker C: So that is full fearless. It's not Hanma life just dicking around. You can't say that like they did against. [00:33:11] Speaker A: Oh my God. You know what I just realized? Oh, a legitimate strategy and a best to five fearless. Let's say that you're. You're playing against the best mid laner in the world. You could draft five of their mid lane picks completely int and troll game one with five mid laners and then for the rest of the series, you know, just keep banning them. Well, and they can't play to those. [00:33:39] Speaker C: To be fair, it's kind of hard against the best mid laner in the world. Fake Herschel that he can play Aolia Nola. [00:33:43] Speaker A: So ah, true Master E, you'll pull that out. [00:33:46] Speaker C: Oh, true. Yeah, that's a deep cut. [00:33:51] Speaker A: All right. Well, HLE did walk away with this one. Casey put up the best that they could, but it was not enough to overcome the mountain. So Badger, congratulations. An LCK team is the best in the world. But what I want to ask you now is where do you think this ranks? If we had to do like a tier list of all time best teams in the world, where does this current HLE roster land? Are they S tier A, tier B tier and then maybe like who's around them and who's clearly above them? Those are the type of other Questions that come to mind. [00:34:30] Speaker B: I mean you have to go, I, I like S tier at this point for me, the only teams that would be like S tier at this point for me would be 2014 Samsung White. [00:34:42] Speaker A: Sure, TSM beat them. [00:34:47] Speaker B: Yeah, you're right. They won a game. It was game three in the series and they were kind of trolling. But that's beside the point. [00:34:55] Speaker A: You didn't have to give additional information. I didn't ask for that actually. [00:34:58] Speaker B: I mean ball ball, nose ball or bottle lie or whatever you want to call situation. I mean it's like 2014 Samsung White, 2015 SKT. Probably that like early DAM1 one of those teams would be in there like 2019, like 2020 DAM1 would be on that list. I mean, I think this Hanwha team I would equate to about like 2016 coup tigers kind of level. [00:35:40] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [00:35:41] Speaker B: Like a really good team. I mean we're basing this just, just off of one international tournament. I mean technically speaking, last year they lost to Bilibili in quarters. [00:35:54] Speaker A: True. [00:35:54] Speaker B: So they didn't have suits. [00:35:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:35:57] Speaker B: So but now that they've got with, especially with the upgrade from Doran to now having Zeus on the roster, that's kind of the SMEB piece in all of it with ku. I mean, ironically enough, Peanut was also on that team. So actually this is a very apt thing, I'd say. They're like, yeah, 2016 coup tigers like 2022 DRX kind of range at this point. [00:36:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I'm feeling 2022 DRX that that's like one of the teams that I'd put around them in terms of not just like power level, but vibes. And a big part of that is Zeka is still the mid laner and I feel like Zeka in his place on this champ pool. It's pretty iconic for what he pulls out. I mean peanuts, no pio shake. But that aside, yeah, you're right. Yeah. Now the next question I have for you and rmc, I want to get your thoughts too actually. Rfc, I'll ask you first to give Badger time to think about it. It. Okay, where does this put Zeus in all time top laners? Because not only now is he a three time world champion, he changes team and wins first stand on a new team ball. [00:37:10] Speaker C: Yeah, that's actually a really good point that he's actually won that many times. I mean, yeah, I'm still thinking of like smeb from you know, that T1 roster. Was it 2018 or thereabouts? [00:37:24] Speaker B: Yeah, smeb was. [00:37:27] Speaker C: Yeah, smeb felt better. But it's hard to argue with the results that Zeus has managed to consistently produce across multiple teams and years. So, yeah, I think as a top laner, Zeus probably has the most arguments going his way. I don't know if it's biased of me to be thinking that, like. Yeah, that. I. I still think I put Smeb above him. But I'm gonna be fully honest, there's a lot of bias into that one. And it might be roasted glasses. Quite a lot. [00:37:59] Speaker A: Also, I do want to clarify that technically, three time world's finalist. I. He didn't win the first time. [00:38:06] Speaker C: Okay. [00:38:07] Speaker A: He only won worlds twice. Yeah, I. Right. When I said I was like, wait a minute, that doesn't sound right. He did win EWC last year. [00:38:14] Speaker B: He's won three here. He made it to three straight world finals and won two of them. Has an. No, they didn't win MSI. They. [00:38:24] Speaker A: No, they made third 2023. Third 2024. They had kind of like a cursed run at MSI. They also BLG both times. Right. I'm pretty sure BLG was like the wall for them. Yeah. All right. Sorry. All that to say. I just wanted to clarify for you, which helps. [00:38:43] Speaker C: I do think that makes me more comfortable saying that I would place MAP above him then. [00:38:47] Speaker A: Okay, fair enough. Well, Badger, I want to get your thoughts as well. [00:38:51] Speaker B: I think he's. I think at this point I would say he is past smeb. I mean he just needs. If. But definitively it. I won't say it until he. Until they have a good performance at Worlds this year is when I would. Yeah, I fully admit that Zeus is past smeb. Hell, I. I still need him to have that 2015 Marin just absolute fuck you season. [00:39:22] Speaker C: Mark in maintain form. [00:39:26] Speaker B: That's the thing. Marin has the greatest single year like of a top laner. Yeah, ever. But like Zeus could threaten that pretty easily this year if this team keeps firing on all the cylinders that they need to. Because there's like Zeus is like S plus plus tier at this point and there's nobody in S plus tier. And you have to struggle to argue to have people in S tier for like international at this point. The state of top lane is like really weak, like globally at this point and Zeus is just that much further ahead of everybody. [00:40:03] Speaker A: And to give context for everybody listening, you notice how far back both RMC and Badger had to go to list competition because Zayas has only been playing like LCK since 2022. It's been a or I guess 21, he had like a sprint in spring. But like from 2022 onward is basically when he's made his run MSI and Worlds every single year since 2020, he's. [00:40:28] Speaker B: Made World Finals every single year that he's been a full time starting roster. [00:40:34] Speaker A: Player and he's won the majority of those. [00:40:36] Speaker C: So I will say though, that first of all, like, for serious, if he wins the msi, that'll be enough for me to make him number one in my head. [00:40:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:43] Speaker C: But there is another player who I think I would want to put in S tier as well, but just doesn't have the results to show for it. And that's in my heart maybe, but in my head I was thinking Bin, actually. [00:40:57] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [00:40:59] Speaker C: Yeah. We always talk about bin whenever international events rolls around. He's good enough to be in that conversation. But he doesn't. He doesn't perform on the international stage. And I don't know if that's him or his team. Right. [00:41:08] Speaker B: I think that's. I think that's one of the knacks that I have on Ben is that just his international performance has never been there, at least for me. Games that absolutely matter. Like when he teams back against the wall, he needs to come out and perform. [00:41:25] Speaker C: It feels like specifically grand finals. Specifically grand finals against Korean teams. [00:41:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Clutch factor is missing. If it was A world ranking of 1v1s, Ben's probably up. [00:41:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:41:36] Speaker A: But. [00:41:37] Speaker B: Oh, for sure. [00:41:38] Speaker A: Team game. [00:41:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:41:39] Speaker A: And we have the track record to look at all the international events. Yeah. But fun little game to play because I think Zayas is up there for me. [00:41:47] Speaker B: He. [00:41:47] Speaker A: He's like my, my. One of my Mount Rushmores for sure. For top lanes of all time. But I think that he's actually kind of taking that spot as the number one. So shout out Zayas. Shout out the rest of Hle. Any final thoughts about our first stand winners and the current number one team in the world, Badger, let's start with you. Either them or Casey or just like firsthand thoughts in general, because that was the first time seeing a tournament like that. [00:42:15] Speaker B: Yeah. It makes me miss the. It makes me miss the charm that like the 2015 through 2017. Hell, you could even consider like 2014, like All Stars slash MSI feeling has. But at the same time, we did condensed splits just for this. Like, I don't know. I. I'm still on the fence about it. I need to see another sample of it next year. I'm not gonna judge it based off of one tournament, but We're. I. It left more to be desired. I'll say. [00:42:54] Speaker A: I think that's fair. It. It scratched an itch, but it didn't satisfy you. You still need some ointment added to that one. And also you should conduct a conversation with your. Your physician. Consult rmc. Let's get your thoughts. [00:43:09] Speaker C: Yeah, I need to see a physician because it gave me a rash. Watching this, like, more. More than scratching an itch, it just bugged me. Like, it. It just felt very lacking. And I think the lack of double elimination was what really made me feel that way. In. In this tournament. It was just. Yeah. It always felt. Yeah. Like we didn't get to see the best of everything and it's just one shot kind of deal. Yeah. That said, I think TES and the LPL as a region need to take a long, hard look at themselves after this. This is a huge wake up call for them. Low stakes wake up call, but one that they'll need to look at. And I'm very, very happy or very mixed feelings about Carmine and how they perform. But in general, I am happy for Europe that Carmine did well. And I'm hoping that makes Europe a little bit more internally competitive so that it's not always just the G2 rain. And hey, if G2 wins, that's fine. I just want there to be other potential options rather than just a one team region. [00:44:06] Speaker A: I agree wholeheartedly. Good for the region that they made another finals. Good for the region that it wasn't G2, and also good for us to watch some league of Legends, even if it wasn't the format that we wanted or it wasn't exactly scratching that itch that is there. I still think it was cool to have, and I'd rather it exist than not. So count your blessings, everybody. But with that said, that's a wrap on the first stand finals, which means we got one more thing to do today, and that is play a little game. Rmc, I'm gonna pass the baton over to you. This is your podium because this was your brainchild. What we're gonna do next year, gonna play a little game. So explain to me what the game is. [00:44:47] Speaker C: So last week while we were recording the podcast, I realized that there are five teams and that league is a five player game. So I challenged everybody. [00:44:56] Speaker B: Whoa. [00:44:56] Speaker A: Crazy, dude. That's a. It's a big number. I can't even count that. [00:45:01] Speaker C: Okay, Jin, Maines, chill, chill. But basically, yeah, like, there's five teams, there's five roles, and so I actually challenged the folk Here on the podcast to using one player from each team to make a team. So like a first hand team with one player from each of the teams. Best team you can possibly make. And how we went about that I think would. Would be the interesting part because it kind of reflects how we think about the players. [00:45:28] Speaker A: And yeah, and let me tell you, this was hard. [00:45:34] Speaker C: Harder than I thought it was going to be. [00:45:36] Speaker A: Not easy to do. I it this like in my internal dialogue, it went from oh, this is really fun. Oh, this is really cool to oh my God, I have to put this. Oh, no. But that's part of the fun one, right, Is that you can't have a perfect team. You're gonna have to have a couple duds, most likely, or at least ones that you aren't as happy about as others. So rmc, since you had the idea, do you want to go first or do you want to go last? I'll give you the option. [00:46:06] Speaker C: Sure. I don't mind going first. [00:46:08] Speaker A: All right, let's hear it. So you're gonna run through your roster and then just give kind of like the explanation as to why you went with these picks and also some of the pain points maybe and ones that were like, almost not gonna make it it. [00:46:20] Speaker B: Which one made you feel the. Which made you feel the worst point. [00:46:23] Speaker A: At this roster where it hurts? [00:46:27] Speaker C: Well, okay, do you want me to go from like top to bottom or like top to support? Or do you want me to go like the. The way like the order I actually was dropping them in my head. [00:46:37] Speaker A: Let's run through the roster and then give me. Oh, actually, no, no. I think it is actually more fun if you just reveal it based on how. How you came up with the list. So however you feel. But I would lean more the latter. [00:46:48] Speaker C: Okay. So my thinking was I wanted Junji as my jungler because I thought he was the best early game jungler in the tournament. Okay, I know that's a bit of a leap and Peanut's probably better, but also HLE had better players for me to pick, so I wanted Junji as my jungler. So that's CFO off the board and Junja in the jungle. Then I wanted one of the solo laners from HLE because I thought they were incredibly good Seis and Zeka. Now Zeka really impressed me throughout the tournament and even in the grand finals against kc, he was absolutely popping off against des. He was just crushing them. Whereas Zeus didn't have the best series against des, so I went second mid then looking at who could Possibly give Zeus the. The father of gods, king of gods, who could give him grief. That's going to be my top laner. And it was 369 on top esports. I went, oh, that wasn't who I had on my cards. But you know what? [00:47:48] Speaker A: I think someone. [00:47:49] Speaker C: Yep. And he did give Zeta's grief. So I was like, okay, so he's the second best option to top lane. That left my bot lane. And here's the thing. I left bot lane intentionally for last because I thought among all the ad carries, actually, I thought all of them were pretty close. We had a lot of really good ad carries at this tournament, I think. Yeah. Yawn. Really impressed me. Doggo really impressed me. But you had Viper. The only ad carry I knew I didn't want was jockey love, and that's fine. I had 369. So I kind of ignored the bot lane first and went for my support after thinking that because I was like, okay, any ad carry I'm happy with, and I already got TS out of the way. This was the tough part. I have Casey, and I have team liquid left for supports, so I have Core, JJ or Targumus. [00:48:33] Speaker A: Yep. [00:48:33] Speaker C: And I'm gonna be honest. I think Targumis performed slightly better, but I believe in CoreJJ and his consistency in general. So I took Corejj. [00:48:41] Speaker A: Arguably, Targamus was still one of the weakest, if not the weakest performer on KC outside of the finals, where Vladdy kind of disappointed, but yes. [00:48:49] Speaker C: Yeah. So I went with CoreJJ, and I took Kalist also because Kalist pulled Nilou and made it look good. So he's got that random factor in him, and I am happy to take that randomness in my ad carry and stability on my support for it. [00:49:02] Speaker A: Okay. All right. I think sound logic, it is just funny. Like, I think we're all gonna echo this. Picking the top esports player was actually pretty tough. [00:49:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:49:12] Speaker B: Like, yeah, that was my fear, and that was my thing in all of this, too. Is just like, God, wait, no. What limb do I just have to just admit is gonna be weaker than all of the other ones just because. [00:49:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I went with a very different route for mine, but there's similarities between all three of ours. So, Badger, I'll let you go next here. What limb did you have to. [00:49:37] Speaker B: So I figured. I figured three, six, nine. You know, the one that's the. I don't want to say the least useful that you figure out, but, like, I mean, it is top lane in a nutshell I was just like, okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna sacrifice my top laner to the Tes Gods and then just play around the rest of the roster. There's. There's one that you can build that way. So I went with 369top lane. Yike in the jungle Zeka and Mid lane. Just because I thought, like, yeah, we were talking like Zeus up, but like, Zeka was clearly the best mid laner at this tournament as well. [00:50:13] Speaker C: Amen, brother. [00:50:15] Speaker B: So. And I did not want to take Apa or Hong or Vladdy just due to performance because I would have taken Viper, but that meant I would have had to take Apa. So I took Yawn and Ky Wing in the bot lane. [00:50:34] Speaker C: Okay. Okay. [00:50:36] Speaker A: Well, we're very similar because we have almost the exact same. Just our solo lane swapped. The way I approached mine is I said, I think the best player at the tournament is Zayas. I want to go for Zayas as my top lane. I think that the best player on the worst team, in fact, the only good player on the worst team is Yan. So I don't want anybody else from Team Liquid. So that was. My thought process, was like, okay, it's gonna be Zayas and Yan. I think that's. That's easy. Oh, now how do I fill in the spots? I ended up going with Kai Wing as support because I was like, first off, Kai Wing Yang just sounds like a fun lane. God, I would love to see that lane play together. And also it opens up Yike in the jungle, which me and Badger agree on. And then I had to go Cream in mid lane. So basically mine and Badger are the exact same, except swap Cream for Zeka, swab Zayas for 369. And I think arguably I'm gonna. [00:51:44] Speaker B: I'm gonna. Can I just go ahead and say you're insane for what he did Cream willingly. [00:51:48] Speaker C: Yep. [00:51:49] Speaker A: You know, and looking at it, especially after the weekend, I think Badgers is correct. But I didn't change this after the weekend. I'm. I'm being ethical. I mean, honest that this is what I drafted last week for what we were gonna cover, but we didn't have enough time in last week's episode. [00:52:06] Speaker C: So I like how Badger and I were just like, okay, which limb do we cut off? And Kang is just like, I'll just blub the abdomen. I don't need anything that makes my limbs, like, bye bye torso. [00:52:16] Speaker A: My liver shot. Anyway, I was predisposed. [00:52:22] Speaker C: Like, I'm liking the Zs. I'm liking the yawn. I'm liking the King. I can live with the Yike. And then like Cream. [00:52:28] Speaker A: Hey, there's got to be a dud somewhere, right? And yeah, I picked arguably the most important role. So that's what we got. Shout outs. Let's run through some of the other broad or podcast members. Bickle had Zayas, Junja from cfo, same as rmc with Cream in the mid lane. Let's go. [00:52:50] Speaker B: The weekend. So. [00:52:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's true. So also the same as rmc, just top and mid swapped, which I think is hilarious. And then Mazelle went for Zaya. Top lane. Yike, Jungle Hankyu. Or am I saying that right? Yeah, Honky Hong Ku in the mid lane, which I think, you know, nods to Hank you. I think it's cool somebody actually picked him. Then Yawn, ad carry and crisp support, which I think is arguably more troll than Cream. But also I'm probably in the minority there. I just want pity points. So. Yeah, yeah, fair. Cool. [00:53:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:53:27] Speaker A: Well, that's it. Thank you, rmc. That was a really fun game. [00:53:31] Speaker C: Oh, so we're still saying it's fun because, like, after last week, after I proposed him to start doing it, it suddenly became a lot less fun. So I'm glad that we can look back and say it's fun now. [00:53:39] Speaker A: Fair. Well, everybody let us know what your roster would be. Would love to see members of the community hop in and. And draft their own reminder. It's one player from each team and you have to build a roster of five. You cannot say, you know, Zayas is going to play mid lane or anything like that. It's got to be in position. That would be cheating if you did the other way. [00:54:01] Speaker C: But. [00:54:01] Speaker A: But yeah. So just let us know what your roster turned out to be and it'd be fun to. To track that reminder. You can find a link to the description for the community discord wherever you are listening to this podcast, as well as the link to support us on Patreon or through our merch shop. Which RMC is. [00:54:22] Speaker C: Oh, it's league rundown shop slash. No, the close-rundown-shop.fourth wall.com. [00:54:31] Speaker A: There you go. There. [00:54:33] Speaker C: Punctuation. [00:54:34] Speaker A: Put you on the spot. [00:54:35] Speaker B: Link in the description. [00:54:37] Speaker C: Just click the link. Don't trust me. Click the link. [00:54:39] Speaker B: Don't type it in. [00:54:40] Speaker A: That is. Yeah. Please don't go to any random websites now. Now a community member is going to make one and it's just going to bring you to a homepage of Duffy's face. [00:54:50] Speaker C: Just as the homepage I realized we missed a trick here. You know what we could have done instead of Kremford Cream? Might not be the best mid laner on his team. Game. Yeah, we could have gone Goong. Their coach was. Oh, he used to play for Najin. [00:55:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:09] Speaker A: No, that doesn't count. [00:55:11] Speaker B: No, as much of a. As much funny Goong fan I was back in the day when he played for Najin. Black shield. [00:55:21] Speaker C: White shield. Black sword. Black sword. [00:55:23] Speaker B: White shield. And black. Yeah, I. It's fine. [00:55:27] Speaker A: None of us thought to do it. And Badger needs to get to bed. It is past his bedtime. He's a working man. [00:55:33] Speaker B: He's Angus Now. I'm about to go watch free practice one for the Chinese Grand Prix before I go to bed, so. [00:55:39] Speaker A: Well, you didn't have to tell me that. Now I'm going to keep you around for a little bit longer. But not much longer. All I got to say is thank you everybody, for listening to another episode of the league Run. [00:55:50] Speaker B: Give us five stars. [00:55:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. Thank you. I forgot that. But it give us a star for every player you're going to draft for your team out of the five teams represented at First Stand. But the most important thing to take away from this episode is this message. We love you and we'll see you next time. [00:56:08] Speaker B: Bye, everyone.