League Rundown - Episode 540: IMT Charlie’s Donezo Manifesto

[00:00:27] Speaker A: Oh my God. [00:00:28] Speaker B: Sy passes through and manages to the tables with Messiah tanking it up. I do not believe he just game Unicorns of Love. [00:00:48] Speaker C: It wasn't your game. [00:00:50] Speaker B: The Nexus. Hello and welcome to episode 540 of the League Rundown. This is 2025 off season continued and this episode is lovingly entitled IMT Charlie's Dunzo Manifesto. I am your host, Kangas, and I'm joined by three esteemed co hosts. Up first, we got Bickle. [00:01:25] Speaker A: Hey, it did it in one shot this week. Good job, Kangas. [00:01:29] Speaker B: Okay. I've been hitting it in one take more often than not. It was growing pains. It was growing pains. You know, you take over as host of podcasts, but I'll take the praise either way. We also have with his fun bird fact of the week, hawk. [00:01:42] Speaker C: All right, I actually came prepared this week, guys. So did you know that hummingbirds have the smallest eggs of any bird and they're the size of peas? That is imagine a little pea and then a bird comes out of it. That is a hummingbird egg. [00:01:59] Speaker B: Hummingbirds are quite small. [00:02:00] Speaker C: They are quite small and very dainty. But I still feel like a pea is tiny. [00:02:05] Speaker B: That is tiny. So, like, that means there's gotta be like pictures of just tiny little hummingbirds out there. I want to see that now if they're like the size of the pea when they come out. All right, new Google search for later. But before we get into that, special guest announcement here on the pod, we've been talking about this for a while. He's a longtime friend of myself and works for an org that we were always respectful of and never bashed once on the podcast. I'm pretty sure we have ex Immortals Charlie, who is in charge of all kinds of things. Content, primarily socials, even as far back as like Echo Fox days. He's been in esports for quite a while and you might have noticed by the name of the episode, this is his Dunzo Manifesto. Because Immortals is in fact Dunzo. Welcome to the podcast, Charlie. [00:02:59] Speaker D: Hello. Yes, Immortals is pretty dun Zod. A little Dunzone, at least in the lcs, but the LCS is also kind of dunzoed, so. [00:03:11] Speaker B: Well, it's actually Latan. [00:03:13] Speaker D: Latan? Yeah. [00:03:14] Speaker B: I'm not sure if you. [00:03:15] Speaker D: I like that better than ltan. [00:03:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I think Latan or El Tan, either one works. And again, I think I mentioned this last week on the pod, but at some point I want to do a content bit where I'm like a super tan surfer dude and I tan an L on my chest. I'm like, I thought it was L Ton and it's going to be fun and everyone's going to laugh and probably applause. But Charlie, we're here to talk about your journey through esports again. For everybody listening, this is off season, so we'll cover some news and such, but there really haven't been overabundance of crazy rosters confirmed, so we're taking it kind of as it comes. So we'll have guests on the podcast to help us get through this very long and arduous off season. So let's get into the global news before we hop into Charlie's stories. Up first, Kaspa Cup. Bickle. This is a yearly thing that happens. Has this already started now over in Korea? [00:04:14] Speaker A: Yes, this has already started up in Korea. They've been through the preliminary stages where you have all 10 teams with varying levels of their actual roster playing. You have some teams like Bro and like Gen G playing a majority of their roster or some teams like T1 who are playing purely academy players and not taking it too seriously. Plus invitations to the representatives from Chinese Taipei and Vietnam. They both get to send some players to play. Again, varying levels of seriousness. Chinese Taipei sent some big hitters like Carsa Maple and Betty. Vietnam, not so much, but that's ongoing. We've already seen the finish of the preliminary round. T1 playing their full academy roster went 0 and 6, went 0 and 5. So they're done. [00:05:02] Speaker B: Aw, man. [00:05:04] Speaker A: But the favorite for this tournament, it's not favorites. It's one team. It's Gen G. They're literally playing with Keane, Canyon and Chovy. [00:05:14] Speaker B: It's okay. You know, they. That sounds like a little better than T1 Academy, I would assume. [00:05:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Damwon's also going pretty hard. They're playing their entire roster of Siwoo. Lucid showmaker aiming in Barrel. They're doing pretty well as well, having only lost to Gen G. Going to guess we're going to see those two play out and likely the finals. [00:05:34] Speaker B: That would make sense of what track. Also cool. See Barrel back over there. Also shout out Maple. You dropped the name. Announced his retirement. So is this like his last official thing for league then? I thought he was already out. [00:05:47] Speaker A: I'm going to double check to make sure he actually played, but I think he did. Let me see. [00:05:53] Speaker B: Okay. [00:05:55] Speaker A: Yeah, he's playing, so I believe this is his last hurrah. [00:05:58] Speaker B: Lasharot Worlds. Nah, Lash up. Absolutely. Sign Maple up. All right. Shout out to Maple though. One of the main stays. We're going to miss him. Okay. Also, NEST is going on at the same time, I believe, right? [00:06:14] Speaker D: Yep. [00:06:15] Speaker A: That just started up as well. That's a lot more minor thing where like 10 LPL teams sign a bunch of lower tier players and just have them play under their names. Occasionally you see like a player you might actually see in the lpl. Nobody of note that I can think of playing this year. So nothing too significant. [00:06:34] Speaker B: And of course they are doing a full English broadcast with English broadcast talent. Right, Right. [00:06:41] Speaker A: Don't bring back the pain. [00:06:44] Speaker B: Yeah, unfortunately, still not over that news. Yeah, rough news there, but if you want to go check it out. I'm not even sure where you could watch Nest if you are an English speaker, but maybe. [00:06:56] Speaker A: Honestly, I don't know if you can. [00:06:58] Speaker B: All right, well, shit out of luck. Now, Bickle, we delayed this last week, but there were. There was something in the doc that was vague. It just said LCK roster chaos. Can you give. I gave Badger 30 seconds to summarize the chaos and I think he got one string of actual information out that I don't even remember because it just put him on the spot. So I'm gonna give you a minute to explain the LCK roster chaos. What's going on in the lck. [00:07:27] Speaker A: Sure thing. So I'll hit on some of the small points first that people might actually find interesting. Berserker, former C9 player, found a spot starting for Quandon. Freaks at AD Carry. Got to see some moving around. Pais has been replaced on Gen G. Ruler is returning home. They're keeping the same topside trio of Keen, Canyon and Chovy. They're bringing in Duro, a former player of. I want to say Fear X. Young guy. But kind of the unknown of that roster, the big surprise that kind of shook everything up and exploded the LCK offseason was the fact that Zeus has left T1 and is joining Hanma Life. There's a lot of drama going on behind the scenes regarding agent negotiation and some kind of shadiness that nobody's happy about. But in the end, what ended up happening is Zayos assigned a two year deal with Hanma Life. That means Doran is replacing him on T1. So that'll be be very interesting to see how that plays out. [00:08:23] Speaker B: Some other players that I believe that's time, unfortunately. Bickle, we'll get to the rest on future episodes. I like this one minute intervals to catch up what's going on the lck. But we do have to get more into the episode itself. And Charlie, I got to ask you, do you follow the LCK at all? Like, do you actually watch leagues that aren't in North America? [00:08:42] Speaker D: I barely watch leagues when they're playing in North America. So no, not really. I. I may fan of the Caterl co streams and the VODs on YouTube where I can watch the games in a condensed format. [00:09:02] Speaker B: Fair enough. Does that mean you're following Los Ratones, the Caedrel team that he's putting together? [00:09:08] Speaker D: Not really. I just, I go to the Cadrel Clips channel and watch him react to Reddit and, and then that's how I get my news now is I watch Cadre react to Reddit. [00:09:22] Speaker B: Well, congratulations, Charlie. I believe that makes you the average League of Legends consumer. [00:09:27] Speaker D: I've been doing that a long time because when you're constantly surrounded by League of Legends for as long as I have, your brain is a little broken. [00:09:40] Speaker A: Minor thing is, you mentioned Cadrel and Los Ratones. They will be competing in the 2024 Red Bull League of its Own. So we will see Cadrel's team, including the Baus against the likes of T1. [00:09:54] Speaker B: G2 and K Corp. How legendary is that? [00:10:00] Speaker A: We get the Bows versus Doran, puts. [00:10:02] Speaker B: Together a team and instantly is getting invited to big shot tournaments. Let's go. I mean, Red Bull tournament is always about the viewership and just the fun. And now we get to see what happens when Cadre army meets up against the French faker. [00:10:21] Speaker C: Cadrel is also very British. Right. [00:10:23] Speaker D: So there's already some. [00:10:26] Speaker C: Some stuff at play there. [00:10:27] Speaker B: Surely that's going to be fun. Make sure to check that out. Does anybody know when does the Red Bull tournament actually happen? Like when's that coming up? [00:10:35] Speaker A: Give me one second. I just had. [00:10:37] Speaker B: I think it's actually the weekend of the tournament that we're hosting. Now that, now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure like the 14th. 15th. [00:10:42] Speaker A: December 15th. [00:10:44] Speaker B: December 15th. All right, there we go. We will not overlap viewer base on the 14th. There's only so many weekends you could fit in in an off season, everybody. But other rumors and news such going around. Hawk, this is something here in NA DSG rumored to be signing Scary Jerry. Last week on the pod, we were talking about ad carries that were up for a promotion that we think could make the jump. And here we go. We got one. Yeah. [00:11:10] Speaker C: Dude, I'm so happy about this. You know, I've been basically saying for the last like six months that Lenz and Jerry I think could both be like LCS caliber gambles. They ended up going with Jerry I'm super happy for Jerry. [00:11:24] Speaker B: I. [00:11:25] Speaker C: This drove me crazy. I was trying to find the day it got announced. A clip of me early on in the Salty Run back days, like early 2023. I said on that podcast, which of. [00:11:35] Speaker B: Course is your podcast that covers Tier three and kind of, if you like. [00:11:39] Speaker C: If you like Tier three, Tier two, Seal, like basically everything that's not LTA in North America, check out something run back. But anyway, on that podcast, like way back when we, when we first started it, I said, and GRAPE said I was crazy for this because it was like a hot take at the time I said that I think Jerry has LCS in his future, even if it, you know, takes a year, two years, three years, whatever. I felt like he was the kind of player that could rise to that level and, and he has now. I'm very proud of him. I've always liked Jerry as a player. I think I've always been very critical of his game, kind of partially as a result of that. But I mean, there's no denying the talent that this guy has, the hands he has. And I will say too, like from disguised perspective, I think they kind of saved their roster for the NA fans here a little bit because outside of xu, this roster was really boring to me because what it's I. Who do they have? Who do they have? Top Lane. [00:12:36] Speaker D: My boy Castle. [00:12:38] Speaker B: It's Castle Abadaga. [00:12:42] Speaker A: Scary. Jerry, who he. [00:12:44] Speaker C: Right. And so I think outside of xu, the roster was a little boring for the NA fans. So I think Jerry coming up gives people a reason to watch. I'm also a huge fan of XU and I. I'm very excited. I. I think this team will probably struggle in the LTA, but looking at what teams are doing in the NaCl, which is just Luminosity so far, and then we also have a Dragon Steel announcement coming out later this week. I. I don't. I. I think DSG has a very good chance on paper of defending their spot. So I'm. I'm excited for this team. I'm excited for Jerry and this is great news. [00:13:20] Speaker B: I'm excited for another rookie 80 carry call up. Masu had insane success this past year. [00:13:26] Speaker C: We're kind of stacked at that role right now. [00:13:28] Speaker B: Jan had great success the year before, even though his Worlds was rough. I mean, in his sophomore year, he also was turning heads. I think AD Carry is a bit of a stacked role in North America right now, so cool to see that continue. Also, speaking of Luminosity, Fake God, Tomio, Insanity, Tactical, Zazel, it's literally just shopify rebellion with tactics, but Tactical instead of B boy, right? [00:13:52] Speaker C: Can I talk about this one again too? Because yeah, I saw a lot of negative reactions to this roster from the community because it's like, oh, it's just like washed LTA players, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Which I think is a very valid criticism. But I've got to be honest, this is four out of five players with Tactical being the one exception just because he's been an LCS for longer. The other four players were all like top two or three in their roles in the NACL as recently as 2023. So as far as tier two League of Legends goes, this roster is still insanely stacked. Also, Luminosity picked up five NA players, which I think is kind of flying under the radar too. They could have gotten like a roamer, right? And they didn't. So I am still pretty happy about this Luminosity roster, even if it is quote unquote, like a washed veterans roster. And I think if you want to like win the NACL and try to promote to the lta, I think this is five names that make perfect sense. [00:14:49] Speaker D: Can I give my take on this on this roster? [00:14:51] Speaker B: Yeah, go for it. Hop in. Hop in. [00:14:54] Speaker D: I think with promotion you're going to see less and less teams, like pick up players who are untested. Like the teams that like come in with money or like Luminosity or like aren't have names as an org, are all going to be teams that just pick up players who have like known quantities because all they want is to promote. They're not in there to be in an ACL for. If they, if they don't promote within a year, they probably drop out for a number of time, like for a bit and then maybe come back. But their entire goal is to promote. So like, I'm shocked they didn't import, to be completely honest. I'm assuming it's just based off of like time and they don't have to pay that much like, and don't have to deal with visas. But yeah, you're like tier two development or if you start seeing big names come into NaCl, it's just going to go down. There's going to be less and less like players that's just going to become that kind of retirement home where they pick up people who they know can probably promote in. [00:16:08] Speaker C: I, I think I agree with you, but I don't think it's going to become a retirement home. I think, for example, to talk about this Luminosity Roster again, I think if this roster fails, there's a good chance to just like half the players retire and that will open up more spots. Again, I agree that teams like Luminosity are less incentive incentivized to take risks, but there's always going to be the CCGs and Blue Otters of the world that are going to need to pick up the scraps or get demand. [00:16:32] Speaker B: And that's why I was gonna say it's. It's a two way promotion system. Right. You can also drop into Tier 3 or Tier 3 teams can get into the NACL still. So I think it's. Both are true. [00:16:43] Speaker C: I like, I agree with you, Charlie, but I think it will be fine. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think the system is going to like collapse and be sad, hopefully. I mean, but it's. [00:16:55] Speaker B: It's going to be very reminiscent of last time. Because Charlie, I know that you've been around for a while. You remember the old challenger system? It's. I think it's going to be that where we have the top three teams gunning for first place are mostly people that already have experience at that level or at least are close. And then there's other teams that populate the rest of the bracket. But there's going to be orgs like this. [00:17:20] Speaker D: Steve, are you ready for Gold Coin United 2? [00:17:24] Speaker B: Yeah. You ready for fly? Dude, that's where FlyQuest came from. FlyQuest was originally Cloud 9 Academy or Cloud 9B team. They promoted in. You can't own two teams, so they just sold the org. [00:17:36] Speaker D: Fly Quest originally became the Pokemon team. [00:17:38] Speaker B: Which is C9 2. [00:17:40] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:17:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Did I miss that old logo? [00:17:43] Speaker D: It was a weird logo and a weird name that did not go together. [00:17:49] Speaker B: No, no. It looked like a. Like an unknown. [00:17:56] Speaker C: GCU or Fly Quest that we're still talking about with Fly. Okay. [00:17:59] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:18:00] Speaker B: That was like. [00:18:02] Speaker C: It was like a weird pilot symbol. God, that. That was such like what an era of LCS that was back in like 2016, 2017. [00:18:11] Speaker B: Back when. [00:18:12] Speaker C: Dude, remember when that team was just. I mean not only was it the C9B team, that team was C9 retirement home, bro. Like they had high and balls. [00:18:19] Speaker B: Lemonation. [00:18:20] Speaker D: Lemon. [00:18:21] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:18:23] Speaker B: What a crazy roster. God. [00:18:24] Speaker C: Balls and LCs. That's a fucking. [00:18:26] Speaker B: That's what we need back, you know? Luminosity. Fake. God, he's washed. Get balls back in there. Let's go. [00:18:32] Speaker C: So not. Not to like tease too much, but I'm working on a G. I'm editing for Esports Garage now and I'm working on a video where I needed a high B roll and dude, I pulled up the B roll of when he was on Fly Quest and as a counter pick to Zed Mid, he picked Jarvan Mid. Does anyone remember that? [00:18:48] Speaker B: I do. [00:18:49] Speaker C: Like that was so hype. So anyway I. I grabbed that B roll. [00:18:56] Speaker B: Sports Garage Shout out Manny and Pastry Time who are working on that channel over there trying to build up some more League of Legends YouTube content. Feels like we've had a vacuum in that space for a bit. So. [00:19:06] Speaker C: Dude, it's like just like pure nostalgia bait content. It's awesome. [00:19:10] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:19:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:11] Speaker B: There's no new stories. That's what we've learned over the last five years of LCS broadcast. [00:19:17] Speaker C: They've been trying. [00:19:17] Speaker D: They. [00:19:18] Speaker C: They really were talking about like the tier two, tier three up and coming like I do. I made brought such a smile to my face. It was Emily Rand and Azale and Raz. They were talking so much about like the developmental paths of like Masu and Yan and like all those players. I'm. Oh my God. They pay attention. [00:19:34] Speaker D: Yep. [00:19:34] Speaker B: At least they can check the league pdm. I mean I assume they also pay attention but. [00:19:39] Speaker C: Well at least. At least Raz and Emily Rand. I don't know if they listen to League rundown but if you are shout out to you guys Emily Rand and Raz. Like I've seen them in like salty run back Twitch chat before. They're real ones. They pay attention. [00:19:50] Speaker B: They do follow the scene. They're also constantly at the NACL Twitch chat too. So. Yeah. Yeah, there's also. So. So that's kind of like the NACL room. [00:19:58] Speaker D: Yes. [00:19:58] Speaker C: Sorry I've been derailing us entirely to. [00:19:59] Speaker B: Talk about it is totally fine. Again, it's offseason. This episode's gonna be very free flowing. But the final thing to really cover here Bickle. We actually have an announcement from a roster. Team Heretics actually have an official roster announcement. Yep. [00:20:15] Speaker A: First team to put it out officially in the lec. It's gonna be Carlson, Sho, Camillo Flacked and Stent. Exactly. The roster that had been rumored. Exactly what is expected. A roster that is likely going to have rather low expectations that the question is what can they actually do with it as this is a very young squad. [00:20:38] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It's crazy how much last week we said it and we're gonna repeat it again. It is the. The update is that what was rumored is true. Yep. Nothing crazy happening there. But we'll see how team Heritrix performs in the LEC next year. Yeah, expectations. I. I don't really know where to put them. I don't know enough about. [00:21:02] Speaker A: We do finally have the final rumors coming out of the LEC for the final team that had done nothing all off season. Rogue finally gave us some rumors. [00:21:13] Speaker B: Oh, they did? Oh, I missed that. Okay, so what are the rumors for Rogue then? [00:21:17] Speaker A: So the rumors is that Rogue parentheses or the team that acquires Rogue as they are still trying to sell. [00:21:23] Speaker B: Yep. [00:21:23] Speaker A: So the only thing we knew is that they had Larson mid. So their rumored squad's gonna be Adam topped, Malrang, Jungle Patrick, Ad Carry and Execute support Executes, formerly known as Junghun, the former support for Astralis. [00:21:40] Speaker B: Okay, interesting. Well, there we go. There we go. So we actually might have a roster for Rogue if they still exist as an org. I mean it's. It's tough being an Oregon esports right now. A lot of teams are looking to get out of league esports in particular. So we'll see if Rogue sticks around for another year or not. But speaking of teams that we're trying to get out, that's part of why we have Charlie here on the podcast with a Pull it right back. [00:22:10] Speaker C: That's actually crazy, dude. [00:22:14] Speaker B: Also, shout out to everybody who supports on Patreon and everybody in the discord. You can find a link in the description down below. But Charlie, we have you on the podcast to talk about your time in esports and give you a little podium. Thank you for coming on and choosing our show. I'm sure Travis Gafford's waiting for your reply to his emails. I'm sure that the dive is anxious to get a reply as well. But you chose us, so I want to start at the beginning. I know Immortals is your latest tenure and we'll get into that later on, but you actually started at Echo Fox very early in your career. So give me just the spark notes. How did you get into esports? What was it like when you got into esports? And you know, give me that bright eyed bushy tail perspective of a youngin coming into the industry. [00:23:02] Speaker D: It was very different because I started my first year, I came in summer split of 2018, which was the first year of franchising. So it was. It was the. It was like summer split of franchising. So like the peak of League of Legends of the year and we had. [00:23:25] Speaker B: Just had hundred thieves make it to the finals of their first split in spring. That was exciting. [00:23:30] Speaker D: Oh yes, because it was my. It was Miami. [00:23:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:23:34] Speaker D: And Echo Fox. [00:23:35] Speaker B: It was final versus Team Liquid, they got smashed. Yep. They. They represented us at that year's rift. [00:23:41] Speaker D: They actually did the best. I think they have one of the best records all time against Europe for an international event. The only team to 3 0. I think they also 3 0ed G2. So. Yeah, I was. I was there for that. Riff Rivals. I gave Reckless his first Boba drink. I remember that very clearly. Yeah, we were like, giving out Boba at one of the tailgates and we had a bunch. So we just were given them back, like, to players backstage. And he had never tried it before. He did not like it. It was very funny. [00:24:24] Speaker B: What the hell, reckless. [00:24:25] Speaker D: Yeah. 2018 was a weird time. There was so much money and so much joy and excitement for the future. Yeah. [00:24:33] Speaker A: So much hope. [00:24:35] Speaker B: So much hope. So what was your like, title when you first joined Echo Fox? What was your job title? And also how old were you? Really young? [00:24:41] Speaker D: Yeah, I was 18. Why? I started. I started off of an internship. So that was. That was the 2018 was like my internship. And I entered there for the summer and I was. So the way Echo Fox worked was it was split up into, like, three different companies. Right. There was Vision Venture Partners, which was the venture capital that owned everything. Then there was Vision Entertainment, which was like the production company. They did some shows and some other things. So my internship was with them. And I slowly, like, I was doing. Working on some of their other gaming shows. They did a show called Game Talk Live, which was like a gaming news, like, live stream that they did like three times a week or something. And they had a bunch of, like. [00:25:35] Speaker B: Wait, I think I remember it was. [00:25:37] Speaker D: A really interesting thing. It was definitely different. I got to work on that, did some, like, assistant editing and then helped run the. Some of their, like, the live production. And then there was Aunt Fest, which was a H1Z1, like, show H1Z. This was right. Also, they were. That production company while I was there, was also producing the H1Z1 Pro League. So did a little bit of work on that. That was a very odd experience because it was in Vegas. Yeah. So I started there as an intern and halfway through my internship, right when Riff Rivals started that day, which was like, July 4th, I remember this very clearly that the production company basically fired everybody and shut down. I had been working on Echo Fox stuff. [00:26:30] Speaker B: Happy Independence Day. Independent of the show. [00:26:32] Speaker D: I had been working on, like, Echo Fox content while I was there. But at that point it was like, okay, well, my internship is now with Echo Fox. It was a very interesting transition. But yeah, Funny enough, the way I got the internship was I sent a cold email and then Nadeshot's now wife who worked there, who I worked with for a while. [00:26:56] Speaker B: Oh. [00:26:57] Speaker D: Saw my email and, like, sent it to the right people. So I am in esports because of Nadeshot's wife. [00:27:05] Speaker B: Shout out to Nade. [00:27:07] Speaker D: Actually, yes. [00:27:08] Speaker B: Hey, there we go. Is she. [00:27:10] Speaker D: No, she's a streamer. She did some, like, talent management stuff for a while after Echo Fox. But yeah, she was like, the PR lead. They're really cool. She's really nice. But yeah. So going back to my story. Yeah, so they, like, the company shut down and my internship got moved over to Echo Fox and I did that for basically the rest of the summer and the rest of the split. And then they gave me an offer to stay and it wasn't the best offer, and I didn't feel like I could properly live in Los Angeles, so I turned it down and went back to school for a semester, which just happened to be the entire off season. Yeah, it was really convenient. And then I. They called me up one day and were like, hey, we want you to come back. We have this job. We need help. And I was like, okay, can you pay me more money? And they did. And so after my fall semester, I packed everything up, moved to LA and worked at Echo Fox. So I was there half of the 2018 season through summer split, and then I was there for the beginning of 2019. [00:28:40] Speaker B: Okay, and remind me, when did Echo Fox dip? Was that 2019? It was like 20. [00:28:46] Speaker D: 2019. Because it was like, we all. So I don't know if we want to, like, fast forward, but we can fast forward a bit. When Echo Fox, when Echo Hop wherever you want to. It was around, like, September, August. I think we found out what was going on in August because of a Jake Lucky tweet. [00:29:08] Speaker B: I remember that. [00:29:10] Speaker D: So we never got real information. All of our information was received via tweets from Richard Lewis or Jake Lucky or, like, Dexerno. That was. That was how we got our information. We would be sitting at the lunch table, somebody pulled their phone out and go, oh, are we getting fired today, everybody? [00:29:32] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [00:29:33] Speaker D: Yeah. Then. So that was a whole saga that lasted a couple of months because, like, yeah, there was some, like, weird stuff of the investors were fighting. And then there was. [00:29:51] Speaker B: Yeah, there's like a whole story behind that of, like, Rick Fox and one of the other guys and, like, call racism. But then I remember somebody being like, no, that's a scapegoat for like everyone wanted out, so they just need. [00:30:02] Speaker D: Truly, they don't actually know what is the truth. I do know that like the, like the racism stuff, I'm pretty sure it was like real, but I never like saw it, but I'm like, pretty sure it was real. But I also think at a certain extent, like it was a scapegoat to get everybody out because it was. [00:30:24] Speaker B: Yeah. The rumors were that Rick Fox wanted out already and this was just kind of like the. Either you can view one of two ways, the straw on the camel's back or straw that broke the camel's back, or the excuse of like, okay, cool. I'm just gonna say that that's had. [00:30:40] Speaker D: Love for the community and everything. Right. But like when the VC thing, like when the VC company was running everything, like, Rick wasn't around. Like people think Rick was like, around. Rick wasn't around. Rick was like, he was the figurehead and he was like the face, but he wasn't around. Like, he'd. He'd show up when he had to, but other than that, he, like, he wasn't around. Like, there were other people running the company, like good people who were. But yeah, he wasn't around. But then when he bought it back, when the like investment company or VC went like kind of away, then he would like, Rick was around. He was in meetings, he was there to kind of review videos and kind of go over plans with us. But yeah, Rick wasn't around as much as people think. That's one misconception. I love Rick. Rick was awesome. It was always fun to be around him and he had a great energy. But yeah, Rick wasn't around as much as people think. He. [00:31:43] Speaker B: What really was that, like, very vocal and present figurehead. [00:31:48] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:31:48] Speaker B: Events and such. But doesn't surprise me to hear that. Yeah, behind the scenes might not be like as active. Okay, cool. So. So that's kind of how Echo Fox was structured a little bit. How you got into Echo Fox. What was it like at the end though? Like, because that was your first experience, you've now unfortunately got. [00:32:09] Speaker D: I still don't have the Nick Smith, but your first experience, he has the. Any percent kill or record. We're all Nick at this point. He. He is the leader. Okay. [00:32:24] Speaker B: Shout out. He just got a job at a. [00:32:28] Speaker D: Oh, sorry, guys. [00:32:30] Speaker B: All the Cloud 9 fans out there RIP. But what was it like? What was the environment like? And. And how did you kind of react seeing an org kind of crumble from the inside? Because you got like a very close view of it. [00:32:43] Speaker D: I mean, the Echo Fox one was I think more sad because it was like the first one, right? Nobody had experienced it before. Like, that was the true, like, first one, at least in, like in, in league, in the franchise era, right? [00:32:56] Speaker B: They were the first team out, I'm pretty sure. [00:32:58] Speaker D: Yeah, they were the first team out. Yeah, it was, it was sad because, like, that one was definitely more of like a family environment because it was kind of a family run company, right. And there were a lot of people who were there from like the very start. So, yeah, then the IMT one was kind of like the slow burn of kind of two years of just like, is this the last split or is this the last split? Especially the off season where EG and Golden Guardians left. There were a little bit of rumblings here and there from people like, just asking me if I had heard anything, which kind of made me uneasy. I was pretty confident that we were like immortals was staying that year because just like, there was no indication on my side of like, I do this every day. I haven't seen a change in how people are working, right? Like, but like, this, the. This after that happened, going into the year, I feel like we all kind of just knew. It was like, all right, guys, we've got one last run. Like, let's make it fun at least. So, yeah, especially after, like the announcement came out, it was like, it was pretty clear to us all, like, all right, it's probably over after this point. [00:34:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So the Echo Fox. And it sounds like more sudden, less expected. We'll get into the immortal stuff in a bit here, but I want to stick on the Echo Fox ad for just a little bit longer because part of why I wanted to bring you on the podcast and. And we've been talking about this for so many years, is because you would. You would casually just kind of drop stories of what it was like. I have one story that I never. [00:34:52] Speaker D: Told you, Steve, by the way. [00:34:55] Speaker B: Oh, well, maybe we can cover that because I met you in 2019, summer. That's when I moved to Los Angeles to cover. I was working for Optic Gaming back then, covering their Academy team and doing player interviews. And so I would interact with you sometimes at the LCS studio because you would also, you kind of like quasi player manage for Eggo Bugs. [00:35:15] Speaker D: It just becomes a thing of like, move along now. Move along. [00:35:19] Speaker B: Yep. Okay. Come along, children. So that's where you and I first met and you would just randomly bring up these crazy fucking stories, man. So I want to. I want to give you the Opportunity, it sounds like there's one I haven't heard yet, but do you have, like, I don't know how we want to organize this. [00:35:40] Speaker D: It might ask. It might. It might cause some questions that work. So. [00:35:45] Speaker B: Okay. All right. Hawk. [00:35:46] Speaker D: Pickles. My stories can be long winded sometimes, but so. [00:35:54] Speaker B: Oh, no worries. [00:35:55] Speaker D: At one point when I had come back to Echo Fox after, like, going to school for a bit, there was a effort to make a Echo Fox reality show. They filmed like a like, teaser kind of pilot thing throughout the office using the content team. And the video still exists to this day. I don't know where it is. I think it's on like, one of the editors drives and it gets referenced every once in a while and then it gets sent around. But there is. There was an effort to make an Echo Fox reality show, like, starring the staff of Echo Fox, and they wanted to, like, sell it to Netflix. [00:36:41] Speaker B: Okay, that's high aspirations. The concept was fun, but this was. [00:36:45] Speaker D: Like TSM Legend, but it was more about, like, Rick and like, and like the people working at this esports company rather than, like, the team. And it was. The teaser video that exists is very funny. And at one point, they reference building a candy wall in the office. Just a wall of candy. That's what 2018, 2019 esports used to be was. Let's just spend this money. Yeah, that was. That's one of the things that I don't think anybody I've ever told. But yes, there was. There was a reality show. There is like a teaser pilot thing that is out there somewhere. I don't know where it is, but yeah. [00:37:30] Speaker B: Okay, I got two things I want to bounce off of, but first I got to get Hawk and Bickles reaction to that. Hawk, would you watch a reality show about the staff at an esports company? [00:37:39] Speaker C: Absolutely, dude. Like, say that. I feel like that would actually kind of fuck because it would be crazy for people that are interested in esports. But then also, like, I can imagine, like, middle aged suburban moms would be. [00:37:53] Speaker D: Like, this is so outrageous. Like, people really live like this. [00:37:57] Speaker C: Oh, my goodness. [00:37:58] Speaker B: You know they're making a candy wall. [00:37:59] Speaker C: Yeah, like, dude. Because if I know anything is that, like, people that work in esports, it's this super weird intersection between, like, professionalism and then, like, the most unhinged people you've ever met. So I like, man, that would actually be pretty good. [00:38:17] Speaker D: I think it would be more entertaining like watching like, TSF Legends to a certain extent. Right. Because you already know what happened in the game. [00:38:29] Speaker B: Yeah, and like, it's cool to see player reactions, but I really want to see like, Kim from HR have a meeting with like, Doug and be like, look, man, you gotta wear shoes. [00:38:38] Speaker D: I've got a story about that. [00:38:40] Speaker B: Oh, people uncomfortable. Okay, we'll get to that. But Bickle, first off, would you watch a reality show about esports? [00:38:48] Speaker A: I mean, it's reality tv. Anything could work. Plus, it'll have the marketing of Rick Fox. It may appeal to a larger market. There already have some built in star power. You never know. [00:38:59] Speaker B: Okay, so that is two yeses. I'm a yes. That's three yeses. Charlie, this is all to convince you to trip. Please track down this footage. We can get this green find. I need to see it and I need to pitch it. I have contacts at Netflix. I can try and get this green lit. Maybe it's absolutely salvaged. Yeah, that's another fun story. Apparently you own Echo Fox. [00:39:24] Speaker D: Is that I do not own the IP to Echo Fox. I just own the Twitter handle because somebody changed it and I thought it'd be very funny to like take the handles that they abandoned. [00:39:36] Speaker B: So all 12 followers that you follow. [00:39:42] Speaker D: I've gained myself through promotion in the Echo Fox discord. [00:39:50] Speaker B: Hey, you might get a couple more from being on this podcast. [00:39:53] Speaker D: Now everybody Twitter. We're trying to get to 15 followers. [00:40:00] Speaker B: You know, I'll go follow right now. That's gonna bump me up. There we go. [00:40:05] Speaker C: You're gonna subtract. You're gonna subtract followers by following. [00:40:08] Speaker D: If you find a photo of Rick's face. [00:40:12] Speaker B: I wasn't following already. [00:40:13] Speaker D: I don't know what to do on it. I'm just holding the at right now. [00:40:20] Speaker B: Well, clearly you're gonna post the teaser trailer. [00:40:24] Speaker D: We can get to a thousand followers on this account. Netflix, show down the teaser trailer and find it. [00:40:30] Speaker B: Charlie, that is far too many. I do not have buy bots. Absolutely. Okay, so yeah, that's a story I had not heard before. But you have other stories from Echo Fox. Do you have anything else you want to share? I'm gonna let it whatever you're comfortable with. There's things I want to talk about. [00:40:50] Speaker D: But obviously it's whatever. You're not the one Steve wants me to tell, but I'm warming up, just telling the one Steve wants me to tell. But okay. Yeah, So a lot of stories happen very late at night because one, all the players would stay at the the office till like 2 in the morning. Some would actually sleep there. [00:41:12] Speaker B: Okay. [00:41:12] Speaker D: But I would also stay there because when I first moved to Los Angeles, I just lived in somebody's, like, spare bedroom for, like, a year. So I would just stay at the office and play video games all night till, like, 2 in the morning. And one night, Gerard, who was, like, one of the strategy guys, he worked on Echo Fox. I don't really know what he did, but he was kind of higher up, and he used. He used to own, like, energy. He was like one of the founders of nrg. Yes. The original nrg. The original over to me one day, very late at night, and he goes, man, this has to be one of the most boring esports offices I've ever been in. And he was like, yeah, at NRG, we had, like, six houses and, like, 400 people or some crazy thing like that. And I was just like, this is the most random conversation I've ever had. Why are you talking to me at 2 in the morning? I'm playing League of Legends, complaining that the office is boring. [00:42:21] Speaker B: I'm imagining he had some. Some white powder under his nose. Maybe he's just like, his hair is disheveled. Look, man. [00:42:30] Speaker D: At 2 in the morning, and then went back to his office and was playing, like, Daisy or something. Yeah, there was. Okay. There was. There was one time that Rick pulled me into his office at 2 in the morning when I was coming back from doing something, and he's like, yo, I just had to have an intervention. People are doing too many drugs. [00:42:59] Speaker B: Okay, this is the one at the Echo Fox office training compound or whatever. [00:43:07] Speaker D: That had this massive table in it, and he was just sitting at this table, and, like, for some reason, I walked by the office, and he beckoned me in and was like, I just had to have an intervention. People are doing too many drugs. And I was very delirious at that point in the night, and it has stuck with me forever. [00:43:31] Speaker B: Keep in mind, you're, like, 18, 19 at the time. [00:43:37] Speaker D: Yeah. I don't know. It was very odd. I still am not over it. It's one of those stories that I pull out of my back pocket when people are like, man, esports is really normal. And I'm like, no, it's not. People had Charlie. [00:43:53] Speaker C: Do you think he was projecting? [00:43:55] Speaker B: Like. [00:43:56] Speaker D: No. [00:43:56] Speaker C: Do you think he was doing the drugs? [00:43:59] Speaker D: I got to stop Charlie. [00:44:01] Speaker C: Stop doing drugs. [00:44:02] Speaker D: Thanks. [00:44:05] Speaker B: Okay. All right. [00:44:08] Speaker A: He thought you were doing the drugs, and he was trying to subtly do it. [00:44:11] Speaker D: That's why I was up at. That's why I was up at. [00:44:13] Speaker B: Charlie's been very. I was just gonna say very nondescript about what you were doing when he got called in. Well, Echo Fox, you know, drug escapades aside, I. What a wild journey that was for the start of your professional career. Keep in mind, everybody kid this. Technically an adult. [00:44:36] Speaker D: You're still a kid at this point. [00:44:38] Speaker B: Because this was like, you're still a kid at 19. Sorry. If there's any teenagers out there listen to the podcast, you. You're not adult until you're 25. That's the new rules. So. [00:44:55] Speaker D: Add one. [00:44:58] Speaker C: Okay, guys. You're officially not an adult until you're 24, apparently, according to the podcast. [00:45:04] Speaker B: Moving the goalposts constantly. [00:45:06] Speaker C: Understandable. [00:45:08] Speaker B: You're really revolutionizing culture, Ben, actually. [00:45:11] Speaker C: Oh, am I that way? [00:45:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:14] Speaker C: I'm glad I can be an inspiration for our friend group, you know? [00:45:17] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. You make us all feel still very old. Well, either way. Yeah. What. What a journey. Like a fox. That's the story that I always think of when I think of your time. There is the cocaine. I'm just gonna say it. You don't have to say the name of the drug. Cocaine monetized everybody. It's a great. It's a great song. Go check it out. No, it's by ZZ Top. That's it. That's what I was referencing right there. Yeah. Mm. Any other stories at Echo Fox? Or is it time to move on to immortals? [00:45:49] Speaker D: I feel like there's so much the office, this. That was. That was like, actually like a fun modeling activity and we turned it into content. But, yeah, like, I don't know, Echo Fox was weird. Like, especially, like, the end of Echo Fox because, like, it was kind of kind of falling apart and it wasn't there. It was kind of what esports is like now, where there wasn't actually like, a ton of money, but we were making it work and it was fun. [00:46:25] Speaker B: I feel like Echo Fox and especially Rick Fox's approach to it. I specifically remember this because he would, like, quote it in interviews and such. It was a very sports centric approach to esports of like, okay, we have this money. We're gonna sign, like, our star player, Froggin. That's our guy. That's, like, who we're gonna build the roster around. And then they kept trying to make stuff like that work and really push for this kind of, like, brand building approach. Do you have any insight, like, what were jersey sales and stuff? Like there? Like, did you have merch? [00:46:57] Speaker D: There was merch. It was actually, like, good merch. Yeah. I mean, I remember it being good. [00:47:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, the jerseys were solid. [00:47:06] Speaker D: I have like, I just wear like some of my old Echo Fox merchants around. Like, it's like high quality stuff. And then like, but like, again, I don't think, like, outside of maybe 100 thieves, like, I don't think esports, like, merch sales are like, as good as you want. Right. I mean, there's the. There's the stat that I think everybody brings up now is that esports, like fans spend $6 yearly. Yeah. Yeah. It's like average fan is $6 a year. [00:47:43] Speaker B: And in reality that's average. Spread out. There's like a couple people buying the. [00:47:48] Speaker D: $60, there's a couple whales, and then there's. And then the majority of people spend absolutely nothing. [00:47:57] Speaker B: Yeah. But also I feel like that's just because there's not a lot to spend it. [00:48:03] Speaker D: Yeah. I mean, like, I think it's all merchandising and all that stuff. There's like, difficult because, like, you invest so much money into like producing this. This stuff and. And unless you're like one of the top three teams, nobody's really gonna buy it. It is what it is. I hope that with Riot coming in and doing like the new, like, in game items that people buy it. [00:48:34] Speaker B: Mm. Do you think they're gonna have an Echo Fox? [00:48:36] Speaker D: They should just have my Echo Fox team pass thing that they had back then. I still have that. That's like. So I don't use it in the in game, like, summoner icon. It's just like the normal. It's the black, like, helmet and if I change it, I lose it. So I haven't equipped a summoner icon in years. But I have that one that was the last one I used that's so good is the Echo Fox summoner icon. [00:49:06] Speaker B: I'm so jealous because I had the same thing for clg. I had the superfan one where you like, you bought the subscription or whatever and you could like see their POVs. And whenever you load it into a game, it would say, my in game name is Sir Buckick. It would say, sir Butt Kick is a super fan of clg. And it would just automatically. Yeah. And then they retired that. You. You couldn't do that anymore. But Because I know. Never changed my icon. It still did it like four years later, up till last year. And then I accidentally changed my icon because I thought I was changing something else, but I just like accidentally clicked on the screen and it changed it to something random. I was like, wait, no, no, no, no. And I went back and now it doesn't work anymore. [00:49:51] Speaker D: The team passes were a good idea because it also gave you an LCS skin. They gave you the LCS Brom Chroma. [00:50:01] Speaker B: I forgot I have a skill. [00:50:02] Speaker D: Yeah, no, that was. That was a good, like, piece of merchandise. The LCS should consider doing that again. [00:50:13] Speaker B: Yeah, well, now we're gonna have, like, icons. And. Yeah, it's. It's. [00:50:18] Speaker D: When we were making ours at Iot over this last year, it was literally what. What will sell the most. And we had a couple different ideas. We just went with the. The most BM one that we could possibly come up with, which was just the Flame Jungle one. We were like, if we attach it to Immortals in any way, nobody will buy it because nobody likes us. But if we make it the most BM possible, maybe people will buy it. [00:50:46] Speaker B: Well, that's a perfect transition because how the hell who's getting that money now? I guess Immortal still exists. Like, I would. They still get paid out. Even though they don't have a team in the league anymore. [00:50:56] Speaker D: The company still. I mean, they riot, still has ties to Immortals. Like, MIBR is still in Valorant. Like Immortals parent company IGC like, owns MIBR still. So, yeah, like, MIBR is still interesting. [00:51:10] Speaker B: Well, hey, look at that, you cashed out. Which is something that we've talked about on the podcast as well. And I'm happy that we have you on because you can kind of talk about it now. Now, Echo Fox, it was a much longer time ago, so the crazy stories are kind of the highlight there. But for Immortals, it's much more recent. And also, of course, you know, trying to be respectful for people that have lost their employment very recently as well. But happy to have you on to talk about kind of what that process has been like, because you got to see, you know, how Immortals operated internally as well as how it ended. And one thing that we have been positive about Immortals, I've gone to bat a couple times on the podcast, even on, like, Hotline League, when I've guessed in the past is that they're an org that, yeah, they don't spend a lot of money, but they also are not in the red. Right. Like, they. They were one of those orgs that they did. They're not around lcs, but they got the emote in. They're going to get money from that. It feels like they found ways to make it work. So talk to me a little bit about kind of Immortals as an entity. What was it like? [00:52:16] Speaker D: Well, there was very. There was a lot of different eras. I was there for five years well, basically five years. So when. When I started, it was huge. And they were growing really rapidly because they had just acquired like the Optic and like the CDL spot and they had La Valiant and they had just gotten the LCS spot. So there was like, it was a big team and they also had mibr, like CS Go that they were doing as well. So, like, it was a big team, like, especially like on the content side, but also just like, overall it was a very big team and like, very focused on doing those like, big events that the CDL was doing. The home stands. Same with the Overwatch League. Those. Like, that was the big thing that year was like the home games and like the traveling around. Yeah, that was like building stadium that year. And it was like the first kind of real test of like regionalization for esports. So like Immortals was going all in on that. Like, the events department was growing rapidly when I started and like, ticket sales was a huge thing and like, just doing, putting on these like, crazy events was. That was the focus. Right. That was like how you made revenue. Right. And so then when Covid happened, like, all that stuff got shut down and never still to this day hasn't recovered. So I think that was like the focus and that was what the business was going to be was like regionalized events in esports. And yeah, that went away with COVID and the company changed directions during COVID because it was pretty quick. It was. I started in like end of October and then, I mean, February was when everything kind of shut down. So yeah, it was. It was kind of a quick. And then the team got smaller and then we went through the COVID era, which is. That was rough. Like, just content in general became just kind of non existent for everybody. I was lucky enough. [00:54:39] Speaker B: Well, I mean, it's. It's hard to do. [00:54:41] Speaker D: Yeah, there was a lot of remote content and stuff. I was lucky enough to be like, I live in the same building as all of the players, so I was kind of like in the bubble. Like. So, yeah, like, I was the first kind of person to like, stick my head out and like, start filming stuff, like in person with people. It was still very weird. Like people who had been on the team like for six months, but I had never, like, actually met them. It was. It was very odd. I think it scarred me because I still hate doing like, remote content or like any kind of like, online content to this day. I think it's just terrible and people are not like, super interested. [00:55:24] Speaker B: Well, thank you for being on our podcast. [00:55:25] Speaker D: Well, yeah, Esports like, online content. I'm like, I'm. I'm very wary of. I. I don't know if there's, like, a place anymore for it, in my opinion, like, of just players playing the game with each other online. Right. Like, I don't. I don't know. But yeah, that was. That was weird. And then there was another shift kind of in like, 2021 was. That was the, like, first year of. That was the Gyoto year with revenge and insanity. That. That year was very fun. Like, Andre is a huge personality. Mo and David, those guys were those. They were very fun. Like, everybody kind of in that kind of. The coming out of COVID was very fun. Just like, the people we were around was good. Like, the whole atmosphere. I mean, I think that year sticks out just because that was the only year we made playoffs. Right. Like, in summer. So, yeah, that was a special one just because we did relatively well, but everybody got along and had fun. And then after that year, there was another change in leadership. We got a new CEO. And that's kind of when the Midwest Great Lake stuff kind of kicked in. [00:56:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I was gonna break that up. The big push for the Great Lakes region representative. I mean, like, immortals, for me, legendary. Because legendary. [00:57:04] Speaker D: That's where I'm from. Like, I'm from that area. Like, same. It was not pitched to me originally to be that. Right. It was pitched to me to be something very different. And I was like, oh, that's actually a good idea. You should do that. And then it changed into, we're just going to represent this region. And I was. It was very confusing and not very well explained to both the staff, the people, like, executing on it, but also, like, it was. It was kind of hard to do when nobody was there, even though we made, like, a hiring push to be there. And like, we sort of had an office there for a bit. [00:57:45] Speaker B: Well, where was my offer? What the hell? I could move back to Minnesota. [00:57:49] Speaker D: I don't know. They hired a bunch of people in Michigan and, like, there was like, there was a push internally to do it. Right. But, like, if your team is not, like, located there, it is very, very difficult. It's like, if the league isn't there either, it's very, very difficult. So, yeah, I don't know what it was pitched to me. I think at one point at the very beginning was it was going to be like a aau, like, league for esports, which is very different than representing the region, which I actually thought was a good idea. Like au, basketball, football, like, that that stuff is, like, big in Michigan and, like, in the region in general. And I was like, yeah, that's a great way to get new young kids into, like, League of Legends and into esports and, like, if there's good backing behind it, like, parents will buy in. So I was super on board for that. And then it turned into something that I was, like, very different and I was a bit more skeptical and it was very hard to execute. [00:58:53] Speaker B: I feel like the first thing. Oh, first thing costs a lot. [00:58:56] Speaker D: It does. It does cost a lot more money. But also, like, deciding factor it was. That was also not, like, during the time where people were like, super pinching pennies. Right. It was still in, like, the spending time. Like, like coming out of COVID I think people were like, actually willing to spend. But then once. Nope. [00:59:15] Speaker B: No. [00:59:16] Speaker D: Like, the. The leagues didn't really bring back events and stuff. Like, I think people. That's kind of when stuff stopped to spend or like, stop. Stop spending. [00:59:29] Speaker B: Yeah. There was even a period like during COVID that it kind of boomed where it's like, oh, viewership went up. I remember that being like a big deal is like, we had a. Because every year Elsie's viewership has gone down, but Covid, actually, you saw, like, for the first time. [00:59:48] Speaker D: Whenever somebody brings it up, I always make the joke that the LCS should bring back the Alienware Dome. [01:00:00] Speaker B: Oh, that was like their virtual set that they had. [01:00:03] Speaker D: Very funny. Yeah. I don't know. The viewership and all that stuff during COVID was. It was very good. We saw a lot of big names in terms of sponsorship come in. I think that's like, what piqued a lot of the progressive stuff because they came after Covid kind of started letting up. Yeah. [01:00:32] Speaker B: And progressive being the kind of title sponsor for. [01:00:36] Speaker D: There was also a piece of. I think that as we were there, an Ohio based company. I think there was also a piece that us being kind of in the Midwest, like, it's easy to. You're hitting the places that you want to hit. Right. With your advertising. Yeah. I don't know. The whole Midwest and Great Lakes region thing was from like a staff perspective. It wasn't very well explained to us how they wanted us to execute. It was more of just like kind of go do this, which was fine. But leadership would have been nice in some situations, especially when there were people who are from only California on the staff and didn't really understand, like, some of the Midwest isms that we have. [01:01:26] Speaker B: Yeah. And that kind of also gets into. I don't want to like, set you up to talk ill of your most recent employer. But there has, there was a lot of like, criticism against Immortals that oftentimes did kind of end up to what's leadership doing? Like, like, where's the ship going? What are we trying to do with this? Yes, there's the positive of their org that is in the green. You know, progressive sponsorship. Don't spend exorbitant amount on their rosters and such. But, you know, what's the point of having the team in the league? Like, like what's, what's the pull? What's the reason? So what was it like? I guess first off, being on the team that's constantly receiving that criticism. I imagine that's gotta be kind of tough. But then also, what's your perspective on where things were going from the leadership. [01:02:15] Speaker D: After starting in 2023, we didn't really have like a main person. Like, our CEO was no longer with the company and basically the end of 2022, but start of 2023, so we didn't really have like a CEO. It was more of like, yeah, yeah. It was more of a little group of people who are kind of higher up. Like, there was no C Suite after 2022, 2023 and 20. [01:02:55] Speaker B: Wait, that's wild. I didn't, I didn't know that. I knew that like the team manager left around that time and there's. [01:03:01] Speaker D: There's an art. There's an article or a general manager right around the time that I'm referencing. I believe it was on did you day. But yeah. So we no longer had a CEO and it was kind of a group of people who were making the decisions. And there was a kind of a mindset change of like, we're going to run this as like a small kind of family business where it's like kind of the group of people who make the decisions. Right. And then we've got like our staff that does it. And in my opinion, it worked really well because it kind of empowered a lot of the staff to like, make their own decisions and do what they were good at. So, yeah, it was, it was definitely a weird. Oh, yeah, no, I mean, I mean. [01:03:54] Speaker B: The C suite, I think, like, people. [01:03:56] Speaker D: Are the most like, on the outside were very confused of like, who's making the decisions and like, why don't we get communication? It's like they're like, it was the staff making the decisions, right? Like, there was no C suite. There was no like executives. Everybody wanted to blame the executives for everything that Immortals did or, like, ownership. It was like. No, it was just a group of, like, the staff, and we were just doing the best that we could. Kind of our directive was like, let's keep it afloat. Like, let's keep going. Like, let's do the best that we can. Right? Oh, no, it was. It was absolutely ragdag. [01:04:32] Speaker B: Damn. [01:04:33] Speaker D: Like, yeah. There wasn't, like, a ton of people just barking orders at us. It was like, all right, let's put our heads together and, like, come up with the best solution for this. Like, a lot of people gave us shit for not activating at New Jersey finals. Right. It was like we would have to send, like, everybody out there to make that kind of thing work, and we just, like, like, didn't have the manpower to actually do it. And we, like, had budgeted out, like, other stuff. Right. So for us, like, missing that event. Yeah, it sucked for the staff who, like, really cared, but it just, like, wouldn't work. Right. And that's. Yeah. [01:05:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Logistically, that's. [01:05:18] Speaker D: Yeah. For the last two years, everything was. Everything was kind of the ones looking at the budget. You're good at what you do. I trust you to do, like, your job. Like, that's awesome. And, like, we had, like, leadership people. We had, like, leadership people. But it was. It's very different than what I think a lot of people thought. And it was. I mean, part of the reason why I stayed was because it was just. It was an exciting new experience in work while still working in esports, where, like, we kind of got to do what we wanted. And now nobody was really, like, yelling at us, you know? [01:05:55] Speaker B: Yeah, that. That sounds from the outside. I don't know. Hawker Bickle, for the two of you have ever, like, worked on team side before? I've never worked on team side, but. [01:06:04] Speaker C: That sounds like, inside. [01:06:05] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like, an entirely unique experience. Like, I've never heard of. Especially, like, an LCS level Org operating like that. That's kind of. [01:06:14] Speaker D: There was a lot of people who had been there for a very long time. Right. There are known, like, outside of, like, a couple interns, there were no, like, new hires on the team. So, like, we all knew what we were good at, and we all, like, trusted each other to do our job. So there was, like, a lot of trust that had to be there to, like, make things work. And, like, we. We had to hire somebody for the last year to, like, come and do social because, like, I couldn't do it all by myself. Being, like, one of the only people in the office. Like, also, 50% of our staff was, like, remote. Like, the last. The last, like, year, two years. Like, oh, wow. It was mostly remote. Like, nobody went into the office except for, like, the players and myself and a couple other people. Like, film stuff. [01:07:06] Speaker B: I did notice that. Well, that was the same. [01:07:08] Speaker D: We didn't lean into that joke quite a lot, but, no, like, there was. Everybody was remote because we made that big push in the. [01:07:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I was a few times. [01:07:16] Speaker D: There was a lot of people who were still on who happened to be just, like, in the Great Lakes and, like, live in Michigan. Right. Who just were doing their job. Yeah, it was. It was very kind of weird, especially now that I, like, have to go to an office and everything. Like, it's very odd. But. Yeah, no, I think people. People don't, like, understand that. Like, there was kind of. There was a lot of remote people and. Yeah, like, I don't know. We all did our best. There wasn't, like, a guiding light of, like, oh, we should be trying to do this thing for the community or stuff. Like, we all did our best and spoke up when we, like, should be doing stuff for the community. Like, towards the end, we all kind of knew it was over, but we were, like. We still made a conscious effort to, like, show up for LCS finals at a YouTube theater. Like, we could have easily just not done anything right. And, like, I think one of my favorite moments, like, this was before kind of everything went down, but, like, the Chicago Finals, I thought went underappreciated for what we did because, like, we put on multiple, like, huge events in the city and, like, did a lot of really cool things. It. For Chicago Finals. [01:08:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:38] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:08:39] Speaker B: Well, there was multiple. [01:08:40] Speaker D: There was, like, one after Grand Finals. There was one before, like, one of the semifinals. Like, we did multiple things. We, like, we're giving out cool popsicles in front of Wrigley Stadium. Like, there were some really cool things that we did for Chicago Finals, and I'm sad that nobody likes, like, kind of picked up on it and, like, really kind of showed what we were doing. I mean, that's kind of also comes down to, like, our own fault of, like, maybe we didn't promote it very well, but. Exactly. [01:09:16] Speaker B: Maybe you should have used the Sacrifice. [01:09:17] Speaker D: Twitter account to boost your. Even if you're doing cool things, but your team sucks at the end of the day, like, nobody's really gonna care, which is definitely super sad. Yeah. Like, that was. That was a conversation that we had. [01:09:32] Speaker B: Except for Sharpie. You had that one. Super fan Right. [01:09:37] Speaker D: That wasn't. That was an interesting experience, but I'm glad we had one person who enjoyed what we did. Yeah. [01:09:49] Speaker B: I know. I know. It's crazy to think of. Okay, well, once Immortals. Super fan, Sharpie, you could probably find them still on X if you just search that. Yeah, they. They were. They were a character for sure. I. I still feel like you should have leaned into the we suck mentality and like, that. That. That builds fans. If you just, like, start the chant yourself, like, we suck. [01:10:16] Speaker D: I think. [01:10:18] Speaker B: I mean, maybe not great for the player. [01:10:21] Speaker D: Going into each split, there was a lot of conversations that we had of, like, what if we never win a game? Like, those were legitimate, like, conversations that we had to have every year of, like, what if we don't win a single game? Like, what do we do? How do we, like, actually do, like, socials and content, like, if your team loses every single game? Oh, yeah. [01:10:45] Speaker B: I'll have you know I predicted that last I. Was it spring split? Bickle, do you remember? Was it spring split or summer split that I predicted Immortals would not win a game? [01:10:56] Speaker A: I want to say that was summer, because I think spring. You said there'd be three wins or something. [01:11:05] Speaker B: Yeah. It was always low, and my confidence got low split. But, Charlie, I got to ask a question because we're coming up on time here. So I want to give you, you know, this podium to kind of get anything else off your chest at the end. But I have one other pointed question I want to ask you, which is something that's been racking my brain. I've talked about it with Hawk. I've talked about it with other Casters. I've talked about people in the community. You said it's kind of decision by committee. There was no C suite. One thing that the community constantly lambasted Immortals for was the roster decisions. So I gotta ask you straight up, who's making the roster decisions in this kind of vote by committee type format? Was there somebody who was. It was their job and their responsibility. [01:11:54] Speaker D: To do three in 2024? It was James who was formally with ESM. It was. I mean, like, James was. Oh. [01:12:09] Speaker B: The last name for James. [01:12:10] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:12:13] Speaker B: Tony. [01:12:14] Speaker D: Yeah. Oh. [01:12:14] Speaker B: So I guess if we're not trying to out everybody, I'm just. I didn't know if that was somebody I recognize, because I don't recognize just the name J. [01:12:20] Speaker D: That's probably why you want to see him, but, yeah. No. [01:12:22] Speaker B: Okay. [01:12:23] Speaker D: I worked. We started our careers together at Echo Fox, too, so we've been together for a while. Yeah. But again for like competitive. It was also like a bit of a committee. I mean in 2023 we had the Parth thing so. So it was a bit of a different strategy. Right. Like I think it was Parth and a couple other people and that and the roster decisions I think were made for that 2023 year when we still did have a CEO. So there was. There was a lot of like shuffling during that time and all that stuff. So 2023 was kind of a mess when it like there was a lot of. That was when C suite people were actually involved. 2024 it was again there was a bit of a committee feel where it was like James Robert Vince who was kind of the overseeing competitive and like operations and all that. And then like coaching staff was kind of was involved in that conversation as well. So again a bit of like by committee as well. But it was less like involved with the business side. Like they had a budget and like they worked within their budget. Yeah. And like I think at that point like they still tried to put together a competitive roster and like I think they made good decisions. Like they just. Certain things didn't work out. Like I mean we had to make a coaching staff change in spring and they saw promise like throughout spring. I mean there was the thing where we were like the scrim gods. Right. And so they kept it together in summer and I mean there were different players and I think they're. I'm. I'm happy with the players we ended up with. Like I'm super happy to see Castle in LTA again this year. He's my all time favorite player I have ever worked with. Literally zero complaints. Perfect human, perfect teammate. I will never say a bad thing about Castle. He is one of my favorite human beings ever. So. Yeah. And like and Edward and John and Olay, like they were fun to be around. Like even Mask, like Mask was a quieter dude. But like I still enjoyed being around those guys. Like if there's a team that I had the most fun with throughout my entire career, it was this past immortals team. Like they were down to do anything and had a good attitudes about everything. And I'm glad, I'm glad that that was like the going out team. Yeah, that's. It's sad. It had like it didn't, it didn't work out like competitively but in terms of like personalities those guys were some of the better ones I've worked with. Apart from Apollo Price. Apollo Prices is also a gem. [01:15:24] Speaker B: Oh. Oh, I thought you were. [01:15:25] Speaker D: There's only there's only like one or two players who I like, still like working with. [01:15:33] Speaker B: Oh, is that gonna be in the dungeon Manifesto? It's been a very positive dunzo Manifesto. [01:15:37] Speaker D: I view it very positively, of course. Like, there were times where it was like, very depressing. Where it's like, oh, we haven't won a game in months. Right. But like, I don't know. I. I tried to. Tried to think of it positively. It. It was. It was depressing at times. Dude. It was like 12 games lost streak or something. I. I don't know. [01:15:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh. Oh, man. I feel like there's so much still to talk about Immortals, but we are coming up on. Yeah. I mean, especially since you were just on content. Yeah, I mean, like, that's awesome. [01:16:17] Speaker D: On the competitive side to be aware of. There was. They worked within a budget. Right. Like, and I don't think a lot of like, especially they did it earlier than a lot of other teams. And yeah, I mean they. They did the best with what they had. I think the. The Revenge Insanity team was definitely a fun experience. Andre is one of the best coaches I've ever seen work. So I've always got mad props for Andre. He was also very fun to be around and like, do content with. So, you know. I mean. Yeah. [01:16:58] Speaker B: Recently announced over in lec. I think Bickle. Do you happen to remember what team Andre Giants. [01:17:05] Speaker A: Let me think. Yeah. [01:17:08] Speaker B: Oh, there we go. [01:17:09] Speaker D: Look at that. I got that on my Twitter feed. Yeah. No, I don't know. There's. There's like a lot of like weird niche things that that happened and it is what it is. I think. I think the community never wanted to give a team that like appeared to be budget a chance, especially like in still in the era of like spending in 2019, like the coming in with the ACA like team was not the best decision and it never recovered from that. [01:17:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Also, just since I have you on here, I gotta flame you real quick before we close out that. Let me be your master. A Spartan helmet. [01:18:03] Speaker D: There was a mascot pitched internally. It was going to be called Gertie the Gorilla. It was just going to be a guy in a gorilla suit with teal shorts. [01:18:13] Speaker B: What? [01:18:15] Speaker D: No real like thought like of why or. Or like what. We just thought it would be very funny for a guy to be running around the LCS arena as a gorilla. [01:18:31] Speaker B: I would have done this for you, Charlie. I would have done that with a smile, but I would have been smiling. [01:18:38] Speaker D: To be the mascot for Immortals was a guy in a gorilla suit. Don't Ask any. Don't ask any other questions. [01:18:45] Speaker A: What the fuck? [01:18:49] Speaker D: That's a great place to leave it. [01:18:51] Speaker B: You know, I think that just kind of summarizes the immortals experience, you know, gorilla and deal assured. That should have been the name of the episode. Damn it. That's a great name for a podcast episode. [01:19:03] Speaker A: Ian, we're going to re record the beginning of the episode and you're going to cut that in to put it right there. [01:19:09] Speaker B: Mm. Yeah, that's. That's exactly what Ian's gonna do. Well, hey, there you go. That is Immortals, Charlie's Dunzo manifesto. Everybody, unless you have anything else, this is your podium opportunity. Charlie, we've loved the kind of stream of conscious. I've had a few questions that I wanted answered and I've gotten those answered for the most part. But I want to give you the opportunity to give any message to anybody out there from the guy who did the Immortals content for the team that is no longer around with us at. [01:19:38] Speaker D: The latan going into next fun stuff in the last year, please. Well, it doesn't matter now if people watch it or not, but yes, Steve was in some of that. [01:19:52] Speaker B: I was in some of that stuff. [01:19:55] Speaker D: I know everybody called our progressive ads cringe. I'm sorry we had to do them. It was contractually obligated. [01:20:06] Speaker B: Remember that time we threw a wall with a big teddy bear? [01:20:10] Speaker D: That was. That was very interesting. [01:20:12] Speaker B: That was fun. [01:20:13] Speaker D: Yeah. Everybody support Castle next year in. In the lcs. He's my favorite player and yeah, I don't know, follow me on Twitter, see what I'm up to next. Yeah, that's about it for me. [01:20:35] Speaker B: All right. And more importantly, more importantly, followers on the account. [01:20:41] Speaker D: I think we're up to 14 followers. I will track down the. [01:20:47] Speaker A: We can get the reality TV show. We can do this. [01:20:52] Speaker B: I. I don't think we have the reach, but maybe we can make a movement now. [01:20:57] Speaker D: We'll clip this show. Didn't he just interview the T1 CEO? He's. He's hitting. He's. He's hit a big time. [01:21:08] Speaker B: He did. True, true. Maybe we should just bring him on this show and then we can like incept it into his brain. Be like, did you know that this out there? And apparently if you just follow this account. Yeah, we'll get all the influencers on it. Thank you so much for coming on though, Charlie. This was awesome, just being able to pick your brain. Of course, it is just off season, so we'll hopefully do some more of these with other members from the community. But this was your opportunity. [01:21:35] Speaker D: Okay? [01:21:35] Speaker B: We've talked about this for years. The Dunzo Manifesto. It's finally happened again, a very positive. [01:21:42] Speaker D: See, the thing is, nobody will ever reach the heights of the real Dunzo Manifesto. So, you know, it is. It is what it is. [01:21:51] Speaker B: True. That's a good point. But thank you so much for coming on again. Thank you, Hawk and Pickle. Sorry. Turned into a little bit of a one cover conversation. I just got so into it, you know. Also, thank you everybody else for listening along. Reminder that you can join the community. Discord, if you want to join in on the discussion, let us know how much you appreciated Charlie coming on. And also if you're gonna root for Castle next year in the ltan. Also, Hawk, people are gonna leave a review with a certain number of stars. How many stars should they leave? [01:22:27] Speaker C: You know, Steve, I worked for more than five hours today, and the viewers. [01:22:32] Speaker B: Should leave at least five. [01:22:34] Speaker D: Why are you limiting yourself? That's ours, actually. [01:22:41] Speaker B: You know, Charlie, do you want a permanent spot on this podcast? Actually, that's the kind of energy that I need here. Sorry, A Hawk, I know that you did have a. [01:22:51] Speaker C: No, no, no. [01:22:52] Speaker D: It's good. [01:22:53] Speaker B: All right, well, thanks. Of course, if you can leave five stars wherever you are listening, it really does help us get more noticed so that we can get the word out to follow the Echo Fox account. But most importantly, everybody, remember that we love you and we'll see you next time. [01:23:09] Speaker D: Peace. [01:23:11] Speaker B: Oh, yes, Daddy. [01:23:24] Speaker D: Sa.