League Rundown - Episode 513: “In the church of Chovy, Lehends never die”

[00:01:07] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to episode 513 of the league rundown. This is the MSI entire tournament review. This episode is lovingly entitled in the Church of La Hens never die. I'm your host, Sean Giulio Duff Duffy. I'm joined today by five esteemed co hosts. We have the ever present Jack Zoman, twitch tv Jackzoman. [00:01:38] Speaker B: Come watch me get trolled. [00:01:40] Speaker A: We have, live from his own bedroom, Kangaska. [00:01:44] Speaker C: And what Duffy did not say there is for the last time, your host of the league rundown, as this is gonna be your last time running the ship here, Duffy. And you didn't cry during the intro. I can't believe it. [00:01:55] Speaker A: I didn't. [00:01:56] Speaker C: How do you. How did you really thought you would. [00:01:57] Speaker A: I knew that every listener was depending on me to get through the title sequence. [00:02:03] Speaker C: True. [00:02:03] Speaker A: So I did this for you. [00:02:05] Speaker D: You're a true hero. [00:02:06] Speaker C: Yeah. You're strong enough for us. [00:02:07] Speaker A: Oh, wow. No applause. Just throw money. [00:02:09] Speaker C: Thank you. You will be on. Just for clarification, you do plan to be on next week's episode as well. But by that point we'll be transitioning to me doing the intros even when it's not your birthday, which is gonna feel weird. [00:02:20] Speaker A: Yeah. You guys aren't gonna keep wishing me a birthday every time, right? [00:02:23] Speaker B: Oh, we absolutely talk about. [00:02:25] Speaker C: Yeah, we think we will. Okay, we're gonna end the episode with that. Just like at the very end, be like, by the way, happy birthday to them. [00:02:31] Speaker D: So we're just gonna. [00:02:32] Speaker A: Duffy couldn't make it this week. Happy birthday to him. Just keep doing it. [00:02:38] Speaker D: Into the wishing Duffy a happy birthday. [00:02:40] Speaker E: Yep. [00:02:41] Speaker C: You're going to age 20 years until you're on the episode and the next episode as a guest. [00:02:45] Speaker A: Ten years from now, the outro will be longer than the rest of the episode with every bit you all have added to it. [00:02:51] Speaker B: That's how you know it's a good podcast. [00:02:53] Speaker A: Yes, daddy, there it is. That's true. [00:02:55] Speaker C: There's probably a lot of people that never listen to the end of the episode that have no idea what that was. [00:03:00] Speaker A: All right, let me get to the rest of the introductions here. Hey, I haven't been on the cast with you in a while, but he's fresh out of the can. It's badger, baby. [00:03:09] Speaker E: Two weeks in a row. This is a minor miracle. But I had to come gloat after. [00:03:13] Speaker A: Whoa whoa whoa. You're from North America. This is a major miracle. Let's fucking go. We got the king of the LPL a little sad today. It's Mazelle. [00:03:23] Speaker D: Oh, it was a good series. It was worth it. I'm excited to talk about all the themes. This could be fun, but happy beer. [00:03:31] Speaker A: My only regret is we didn't get five games. It was so close. We're going to talk more about that later. But finally, a man who needs no real additional introduction. And you're going to be hearing more of his sultry tones throughout the rest of the year and beyond. Please welcome back, Hawk. [00:03:48] Speaker F: Sultry is quite a word. I don't know. [00:03:52] Speaker A: Do you know what that means? Are you too young for that? [00:03:54] Speaker F: No, I'm pretty sure. I mean, I'm pretty sure I know what sultry means. [00:03:57] Speaker C: I think. [00:03:58] Speaker A: Okay. [00:04:01] Speaker C: What'S a zoomer term? [00:04:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:03] Speaker C: Soul truck. [00:04:04] Speaker A: Oh, Riz. Riz. You got Riz? [00:04:05] Speaker F: Yes. [00:04:08] Speaker D: When he does the Kronk voice. Oh, yeah, the cron. [00:04:12] Speaker A: Oh, Cusco. [00:04:14] Speaker D: I'm pretty sure he's Cronkin. [00:04:16] Speaker E: That's actually pretty good. Okay. So much mad respect. [00:04:22] Speaker A: We got mad respect for a lot of other things happening around the world. We got to get some news in first before we talk about the MSI championship, how they got there, and the journey of all the other teams who fell by the wayside as one team marched along the potential golden road. But before we can complete a golden road, what do we have to do? We got to play summer split, baby. And the LEC returns first, I believe, June 8. I don't know what the LCK or LPL start times are. I'm assuming they're much later because the lcs returns the following week, June 15. We've actually got some pretty interesting changes, I believe, to the LCS. We don't know everything, though. Nothing's really been confirmed. Right, guys? We just have inklings of ideas, of changes. [00:05:06] Speaker E: Wait, have they not confirmed it yet? [00:05:08] Speaker B: They have not confirmed it. [00:05:09] Speaker F: We have rumors of best of three. [00:05:12] Speaker C: It is all but confirmed. Riot just hasn't officially made the statement saying, yep, we're doing this officially. [00:05:18] Speaker F: We're waiting for MSI to end. [00:05:20] Speaker C: Basically, the rumors mean best of three single round robin rather than double round robin. So each team will match up against each other once, expecting scheduled changes as well to follow suit. So less overall teams playing each other per week, but theoretically more games. If the best of three series are going to three games, we talk. [00:05:39] Speaker A: I think more about that as the lcs itself creeps up as we get more information and details. I ain't going to be here for this, but you all can talk about it. We just had. This is like pseudo lcs. C nine just played fear X with most of their roster, I guess, which is an LCK. Tier one team. As in they play in the tier one of LCK. Not that they themselves are tier one team because Badger would grimace if I'd called them anywhere near a top team. But if you wanted to watch some actual League of Legends played that maybe didn't quite stack up to the MSI that we just saw for two weeks straight, which was absolutely incredible. Watch this. You can see a first glimpse at C nine's new top laner, which his name, of course, Badger is. [00:06:25] Speaker E: Well, I call him thanatos. I don't know what the fuck you call him. [00:06:28] Speaker A: Thanatos? [00:06:30] Speaker C: No, I thought it was thanatos. [00:06:31] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I forgot which one. [00:06:33] Speaker B: Whichever one Duffy wants. It is a tradition. Duffy cannot pronounce names correctly. The fact that he gets our names correct is honestly a minor miracle. [00:06:43] Speaker A: Yeah, you guys are welcome. Okay? And I know how to pronounce riot. I know how to pronounce some champion names, but not all of them. I'm working on it. I'm not working on it. It's way better this way. Anyway, if you wanted to watch some of this new c nine roster together, they did stream. It's on YouTube, not twitch. Maybe it was streamed on Twitch afterwards, but it was streamed live on YouTube because Korea has a ban, essentially, on Twitch. So just a heads up there, if you were wondering where to find the english cast, I think a couple of friends of the cast, alk battery and man magical actually were the english cast on that, which is really cool. So check those games out, I think was just the best of two, really. And it went one on one. I didn't watch it. It just happened last night. I haven't had time, but I've seen some people really enjoyed it. And you know what else people really enjoyed? MSI as a whole. Good lord. Viewership numbers were insane. Despite the bad time zones for the United States, which we already know is the smallest viewership of all the major regions. Anyway, we were nearly at 3 million viewers without chinese numbers. And the biggest, that was peak. The biggest you getter was not even the final. [00:07:54] Speaker C: Nope. [00:07:55] Speaker A: It was actually the lower finals between SKT t one k and Billy. Billy gaming. [00:08:04] Speaker D: What a banger. [00:08:05] Speaker B: That game. That series was awesome. [00:08:08] Speaker C: That series was great. We'll talk about that in a bit here. But average viewers, this is according to the esports charts website. I don't know exactly if average viewership is across the entire tournament or only for like a certain week or what, but it's saying over a million. Just over a million. Like 1,013,000 average viewers. So if that's tournament wide, that's crazy, too. [00:08:30] Speaker B: I believe that is tournament wide. [00:08:33] Speaker C: It would make sense because, yeah, it does have, like, you know, airtime of 77 total hours, which seems like that would be the entire event. But that's. That's cool. And it's incredible. At t one, not only were they the highest they have outside of the finals, they are present in all the other top five games. So it's t one, blg. Blg gen g, then t one, g two. T one, g two. Round two. Electric boogaloo. Finally, the lower bracket semifinals actually lower viewership than their first round matchup. And then it was t one blg their first round in the bracket stage. So, yeah, cool stuff. Shout out to t one. They still bring in the viewership, and I really wonder what's going to happen whenever faker eventually retires. It's got to happen sometime. And are we all doomed at that point for viewership? [00:09:20] Speaker E: I think it will be all right. [00:09:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Someone else is going to step up, and we already know who that player is. It's, of course, apa, so don't worry about it. [00:09:32] Speaker F: Instead of different players, name it. [00:09:33] Speaker E: I was waiting for it. [00:09:35] Speaker A: We should have. Oh, my God, I should have. [00:09:36] Speaker C: All right, let's do it again. It's not too late. It's not too late. Everybody think of a player. And three, two, one. [00:09:41] Speaker E: Don't close it with a z. I. [00:09:44] Speaker A: Think we're on the same page. Oh, man. I'm leaving this in good hands. That's for sure. Roster news. We got nothing in cement anywhere right now. The most recent thing was licorice, which was announced a couple weeks ago. I'm still hoping for some other lcs. [00:10:00] Speaker F: Changes, but not everything less than we hope, though. [00:10:05] Speaker C: No? I am hearing in particular surdy is still fly quest challenge. [00:10:10] Speaker F: I've heard that as well. [00:10:12] Speaker C: Yeah, so that's a bummer. [00:10:14] Speaker A: No. [00:10:15] Speaker E: Damn. I still need. [00:10:16] Speaker F: Our region is unserious. It's fine. [00:10:18] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [00:10:19] Speaker C: God. [00:10:19] Speaker D: The mask is still here. [00:10:22] Speaker E: Mask is still here. Somehow, mask and Castle are still the. [00:10:26] Speaker A: I want to cry. All right, I'm moving on before I actually do break down. This is what's going to make me break down more than anything. Hey, badger, if people want to hang out with me after I'm retiring from the cast, want to be involved in some community games, want to get involved in Pickem's fantasy, where the heck can they go? [00:10:44] Speaker E: So we have this really cool thing called the community discord where we've been starting to do polls, and I need to get with trying to think who was fruity Mike and free shooter about seamless co op for Elden Ring before shadow the erdtree comes out. But if you're interested in playing anything else. I know helldivers was an option. Arena games was a thing. Basically, you name a game in there, and there's probably somebody that either owns it, has played it, or is like, yeah, no, I've sneakily put in 700 hours into that game without anybody knowing it. So what? Free shooter apparently has 730 hours in Elden ring, and I didn't know that until we were talking about it. [00:11:30] Speaker B: He speed runs that. [00:11:32] Speaker E: He speed runs Elden ring, and I didn't know it. And I'm gonna play seamless co op with him, and he's just gonna carry us through the game. It's gonna be pretty great. [00:11:39] Speaker A: That is a month. That is a month of straight playtime. [00:11:43] Speaker D: Yep. [00:11:44] Speaker C: Incredible. I will say right now as well. I know it might not be came out, might not. It did just come out. It's like two years. [00:11:52] Speaker F: It might be three or four now. I'm keeping a buck with you. [00:11:55] Speaker D: Oh, wait. [00:11:56] Speaker F: I was like a. I was like a sophomore, junior in college when that game came out. [00:12:00] Speaker C: That's crazy. [00:12:01] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:12:02] Speaker C: All right. [00:12:03] Speaker F: That's my best year ago. [00:12:05] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:12:06] Speaker F: Oh, like a year. [00:12:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:12:07] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:07] Speaker C: Okay. Also, this is a public challenge for anybody in the discord, anybody at me and use the guy at. So it hits both my accounts. Long story. Not going to get into that. But if you Taguy and you challenge me to a Yu Gi oh duel in Master Duel, I will take you on anytime, any place. So that's my game of choice. [00:12:28] Speaker A: I want to point out for everyone that is a lie. He does not check his phone often enough to actually take you on at any time, any place. [00:12:34] Speaker D: Yep. [00:12:35] Speaker C: Okay. I will take you on. Probably a couple days late when I eventually see the ad. [00:12:41] Speaker F: If you want to really. If you really want Kangas to see your message, you just ping his home account, because that's the one he's guaranteed to respond to you on. [00:12:48] Speaker C: You know, I actually do have a higher chance of responding on the. On the home computer account. [00:12:52] Speaker F: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:12:54] Speaker A: That's why we've created a role for him that he referenced, which now we have to explain, by the way. So nice try, Steve, but no dice. He has a role in his. In the rundown community discord and in here called anguy with two eyes, which is his plural account. So it's a role that combines the two of them. So, yeah, just hit that one and we will explain right now, actually, why. No, I'm not gonna do that. Go for it. [00:13:20] Speaker C: Okay, so we're moving on. Also, shout out to the patrons, by the way, everyone who helps keep the podcast going, specifically high quality audio. We do have some extra, you know, perks for those that do help us out. We have 20 minutes long patron episodes consistently. Now, sometimes we stretch for way too long to make sure that we get to that point, but sometimes that's fun, too, because then you just get to hear us talk about random bullshit, which we would be doing anyway. Probably that would have been a great place to explain the whole can guy thing. Maybe we'll deeper dive into that at a later time. [00:13:54] Speaker B: I think we have on the Patreon content before, but we'll do it again. [00:13:57] Speaker C: That's about right. [00:13:58] Speaker E: I feel like we've covered it on main show, too, but I don't know, that might be me just mixing the two together at this point. [00:14:05] Speaker C: Yeah, well, that's about all the business at hand to catch us up to what we're going to talk about to begin with. Guys, I don't know if you were aware, but MSI happened. [00:14:15] Speaker D: No way. [00:14:16] Speaker C: It's already done. That actually kind of ended fast. It was a rapid fire turning the computer brand. [00:14:22] Speaker E: It's already over. They're done. [00:14:24] Speaker C: They're done. They're out of here. Now we're all on dells. [00:14:27] Speaker E: Damn. [00:14:28] Speaker C: I think that is a comparable brand, but I'm unsure. So I'm just going to keep moving on. It is a brand Sunday, very early morning, and history was made because this matchup was built up so much in their upper bracket match. And then we got a rematch in the finals night versus chovy. And I personally think it delivered, but it wasn't necessarily the most impactful players of the overall series, but it was an impactful moment for Chovy in his career because Gen G did it. They ended the kings of spring dominance. Mazelle. I am sorry, I don't. Can you even say that line on broadcast anymore? Like, if you say that, are you going to get in trouble? [00:15:12] Speaker D: I think I'll be just fine. [00:15:14] Speaker A: All right. [00:15:14] Speaker D: Track record. I think track record still holds. [00:15:17] Speaker C: LPL historically owned MsI as a tournament. They had won many in a row. G two had won in there, but it had been seven years since the LCK had won an MSI, and Gen G took it home in China as well. Which was pretty wild to witness. Three to one for Gen G. Badger, I know that this was your prediction as well. Did you say three one or three, actually, for the prediction? You did? [00:15:43] Speaker E: I said five games for both series, but, yeah, no, I. I was the only one that picked gen g on the cast to win it all last week, so. [00:15:50] Speaker C: All right, well, what were the. What were the highlight moments then? Talk to us about the finals. Cause that was a pretty good finals, all things considered. [00:15:57] Speaker E: Game two pace at the international, is it. I can't remember if it was international or international tournament or global record for kills in a game. [00:16:07] Speaker B: I think it was international tournament. [00:16:09] Speaker E: Okay, there's no way. [00:16:12] Speaker B: 28 kills? [00:16:13] Speaker C: That's insane. [00:16:14] Speaker E: 28 kills in a game with a pentacle to finish it off on callista. To put it into perspective, the most kills that billy. Billy had in a game this entire series was 20, so. [00:16:28] Speaker F: Oh, my. [00:16:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Good game, guys. I don't know. I don't think anyone else is brave enough to say this. [00:16:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:16:41] Speaker E: I can save at this point. You gotta spare some bullets for later on. [00:16:45] Speaker A: I'm leaving so I can take the bullets for you all. Okay, listen, I'll fall on the sword and I'll say pays did pretty well that game. All right. Want to make sure that's clear. Yeah. All right, now throw your slings and arrows at me, but only if you subscribe to our Patreon, so. [00:17:04] Speaker E: But, yeah, it was. I don't know if I like the Met. I don't know if I like this meta for MSI with the. The Senna and Callista trades the entire time, just going back and forth. I feel like that was just such a bot lane. But, like, the game two draft. Well, game one was. Was very. In the finals. Game one from Gen G was senate. Tom Kench. Okay. Cassante, top lane, great flavor of the tournament. Top laner. Karthus yone, mid jungle. I didn't know what to. I saw that, and I'm like, wait, am I just sleep deprived at this point, or is this, like, actually going to work? [00:17:48] Speaker A: The whole meta for the finals was so goddamn funny. Like, how did this happen? How did we get here? How did we start with what happened in planes to what we ended up with in finals? I'm so confused, but I love it so much. This is the sort of thing that happens in a tournament structure, right? People learn. They adapt, and then they adapt again. Then they adapt again, then they adapt again, and then usually gen g goes home, but they didn't as much as. [00:18:14] Speaker B: Aspects of the current meta frustrate me. This is a testament that riot has actually done a decent enough job balancing that. We see this much adaptation throughout the tournament. A few years ago, we did not see this kind of drastic meta shifts regularly. [00:18:28] Speaker C: I think that's a pretty fair statement. Other than some international finals. I do recall in the finals we saw, oh, that's the big answer. Or maybe it was semis. I remember things like Urgot back in 2018, world suddenly appearing as, or usually like, victor top as, like, the counter to the aatroxes and stuff like that. Right. That kind of showed up late in the tournament. So it sometimes happens. But you're right that this one did not feel stale. [00:18:55] Speaker B: It felt like it was just every round. There was gradual evolutions of the meta. [00:19:00] Speaker C: Other than the Callista Senna, which was kind of handling this. [00:19:04] Speaker F: Yeah, bot Lane was a little boring. I mean, I think there was a lot of the same picks shared back and forth, and I think that's how it is every tournament. But I will say I think something that helped this MSI in particular is we had a lot of the players that were willing to play their own stuff. Right? Like, I mean, Canyon and Chovy, you talk about finals. Those are players that have always been willing to play comfort. And I think even on, like, the Na EU side, right, g two has always cooked. TL was very willing to play their own stuff, which I thought was actually pretty cool from them, you know, so stuff like that. So I think it also helped that just, like, some of the players that we had and some of the teams that we have were more willing to do their own thing. [00:19:42] Speaker C: And show me is what on, like, a 16 win streak on his comfort yone. [00:19:46] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:19:47] Speaker F: Ashley Kang tweeted. Well, her tweets at 15, but I don't know if that included the finals game or not. [00:19:52] Speaker C: So I'm pretty sure that was after game one. [00:19:54] Speaker F: It might have been. [00:19:55] Speaker E: And then he played it in game two. [00:19:56] Speaker C: So again, in game two. So it's either 16 or 17. I don't. [00:19:59] Speaker F: He's got a few. [00:20:00] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he won both the Ona games and then jungle a couple different picks. We saw a lot like the rumble, Camille's, things like that in the top. [00:20:09] Speaker E: What's crank from Lohan's in the game, too? Just. [00:20:11] Speaker C: Oh, that list was so good. [00:20:16] Speaker E: Yeah. [00:20:16] Speaker C: Oh, my God, that. Okay, can we just talk about it? Mazelle, I actually want to hear you talk about it. Cause Billy. Billy's jungler, that same spot in the bott river, right, when you're like walking from mid lane. Just kept getting hit by the heads. [00:20:31] Speaker D: Dude, what was going on twice in a row? I mean, I don't know. [00:20:34] Speaker A: Okay. I don't know why. [00:20:35] Speaker C: You want me to talk about an extra time? Yeah, that's the first. [00:20:41] Speaker A: Do you wanna relive the horror? [00:20:42] Speaker D: I guess that's what he wants me to do. I mean, I don't know why a player makes like that. Like, it's just clearly he won't get. [00:20:50] Speaker E: Hooked in that bush for like the 7th time in a row. [00:20:53] Speaker D: I mean, it was kind of. It like. [00:20:55] Speaker C: It was. [00:20:56] Speaker E: It was. [00:20:56] Speaker D: It was two times. [00:20:57] Speaker C: The reason I bring it up for you, Mizel, is because when we were watching the game, and at least going into that game, too, I remember you specifically being like, Billy, Billy. Sometimes when they don't know how to play against a comp, they will just look really bad. [00:21:11] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. [00:21:12] Speaker C: And I think that the blitz, Craig kind of did that. [00:21:14] Speaker D: Yeah, it did. I mean, we saw it with the Ivern as well in the previous Gen G series. I think it was really good drafting by. By Gen G. And I think BlG and all of LPL actually had some really tough drafts. [00:21:31] Speaker C: Sure. And like, speaking of, they missed a ban, which is hilarious. [00:21:35] Speaker D: The game that they won, they didn't learn from it. [00:21:40] Speaker A: Miss a band game. [00:21:41] Speaker C: Four guys, you would have done it. Yeah, they didn't need that fifth band. It was their crutch. They also referenced the first series that they went up against each other with Ivern. I want to get your thoughts. Do you think Billy. Billy did better in the finals or the first match against Gen G? [00:21:56] Speaker D: I think they did better in the finals, for sure. Yeah. I don't think it was enough, but I definitely think they did better. [00:22:01] Speaker F: The first one was a sweep, right? [00:22:03] Speaker E: I mean, no, they had night Knight got. [00:22:05] Speaker D: It was three one. It was really strong into getting dominant. [00:22:09] Speaker F: Oh, right, right. I do remember the re game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do. I think. I mean, I know you're asking Lenin, but I feel like the thing, the difference between the two series was, you know, knight had that one Godari game the first time that they played. But overall, it felt like he was turbo gapped by Achovi, where I don't think that happened in the finals, which actually kept PlG a lot more in it, I think, for the game. [00:22:31] Speaker E: I think one of the other things with the first series, too, was Gen g let them have comfort in game one. And then they pulled out the Nidalee pick and the cannon. Italy came out and, uh, upper finals. And I think that kind of threw a wrench into the plan of, like, okay, this is a pick that's also there. So then when they were playing the, uh. I'm trying to think the poke comp in game three and shun locked in Diana, I was just like, oh, okay, Billy. Billy does not know what they want to do in this. They know what they want to do, but I don't know if they'll be successful in what they want to do at this point. [00:23:05] Speaker C: Yeah. And speaking of, I mean, they're the ones that then played the kind of poke comp with the Nidalee, the jace in the game that they won in the final series, which they. [00:23:16] Speaker E: They were really close to not winning that one. Yeah, there was that really close fight in blue. Blue side, blue jungle right there when they were like, when I think Genji, like, they lost somebody and then they got a return kill and they thought, okay, do we fight this? Do we not fight this? And they looked very split when they were kind of going in, which I felt like was the one saving grace of Billy. Billy. Because that kind of turned it around and got them back in the game, and they were able to take advantages and get a baron off of it and get a snowball going, too. [00:23:48] Speaker D: So. [00:23:49] Speaker C: Yeah. And in particular, I think Ben played very well. The Jax game, he was like, I think the reason, the catalyst that they were able to win that and even the previous series or the previous games, like his TF in game one, that series where he's getting chased in the top lane, he, like, almost gets out. That was insane. I really felt like I said this to Mazelle because we were watching on the couch together for the first couple of games before I got sleepy and had to finish the series the next day. But Ben and his performance felt like what Bwipo wants to be, where he is able to just be that guy for his team. But it wasn't enough, because, personally, I felt like night wasn't really that big of a factor. He kind of had a quiet series. I don't think he played, like, bad, but I don't think he really played impactful. I don't know if anybody else has thoughts on that. I see Duffy's shaking his head with disgust. [00:24:48] Speaker A: Night stinky. I don't even think Chovy played particularly well. That serious. I think both mid laners, best player. [00:24:53] Speaker E: On his team in that series, at least. [00:24:54] Speaker C: Yep. [00:24:55] Speaker A: Yep. I think we got this storied matchup finally between these two titans in their own region and if that's really all I cared about, this finals stunk. Both of them underperformed. And it wasn't just like they were both focused, you know, as the focal point for each of their teams, which both of them are very important to their individual rosters, although we can see how flexible now the Gen G team is with keen in the top lane, with what canyon brings, etcetera. But even, like, in a vacuum, I thought both of them made very weird, odd suboptimal choices in terms of their map play, in terms of just individual micro decisions. There's so many times where, especially on Tristana, that I can think up in my head right now. Night. Just hard misplayed. If I had a nickel for every chovy yone ult that could have turned the tide of things and did not or just whiffed entirely, I probably could have actually attended the series in person. Oh, you can't actually ult that many times. I'm sorry. Even if he missed all of them. But you get the idea of, like, both of them, I thought, did not showcase what we were billed to get. And it didn't matter in the grand scheme of things because both teams as a whole were so much fun to watch and really performed, and someone stepped up each time. Bin's Camille. Yeah. [00:26:24] Speaker C: Yep. [00:26:25] Speaker A: I don't want to see that anymore. As an ad carry player, that was. That was the stuff of nightmares. [00:26:32] Speaker C: I think Ben was one of, if not the best player at MSI. I actually think he was the best player at MSI. Think of another player that, like, had a better standout carry performance. [00:26:44] Speaker F: I mean, my hot take is that he started really reason why his team even made it to finals, because I feel like BLG, if I'm being honest, it felt like the rest of the map did not really step up in the way that everyone expected. Like Elk and on, particularly, I mean, were considered to be really good. And I think they played well, especially early in the tournament, but they didn't like one v nine games. I think Bin was the only one that was actually winning them a lot of their games, like, later in the tournament to get them there. [00:27:11] Speaker D: I had a long conversation with Kelsey about this. No, I guess not long conversation in the discord when we were watching the fifth game. But I think the problem was that BLG spent so much of their regular season, so much of the start of MSI, and I guess playoffs as well, like, winning through bot side, which let them play through their solo lanes and through jungle a lot where at MSI I think their bot lane was probably the weakest performing out of all of them, which is can't happen when that's like your win condition. I think that was that plus the lack of drafting adaptation and the slowness that we've seen from multiple tournaments now from the LPL in adapting to quick meta shifts like t one and like Gen G have done, I think was the bane of LPL this time around. [00:28:01] Speaker C: And to their credit, they were still able to get leads like Billy. Billy. Like that game one, for example, they had a pretty decent lead in the early game, but they're playing Lucian, Nami, xin, zhao. Like these are early game champions. That that's where they're going to be strong. They're up against Senna, karthus, yone, like champions that just get better as they have more items. And Gen G were able to just scale there. So I don't think it was like billy. Billy didn't have the ability to play through bot lane, but they were struggling to win by doing that. So I guess in that way, yeah, you could say that they're struggling to play through bot lane. But all that to say, I think Ben still had a really good tournament. [00:28:40] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. [00:28:40] Speaker C: Very impressed with Ben's play individually. I think it's time to talk about that. Game four, though, for the finals and we can move on to the other teams. What a banger. [00:28:50] Speaker F: What a bang. [00:28:52] Speaker C: Badger. This is still, you so kind of intro us in here. How long was this? [00:28:57] Speaker E: 147 minutes. [00:29:00] Speaker A: Oh, my God. Na games. Let's go. [00:29:03] Speaker E: Just based on the fact that at one point billy, billy had taken, was it mid and hit was down, bought and hit was open and there were no nexus turrets. [00:29:12] Speaker D: Yep. [00:29:13] Speaker E: So they basically did the strategy of, I don't know what the comms were like just because we didn't have access to them, obviously, but at like between like 41 and a half minutes and like 45 minutes, they're just like, okay, we're not going to want to fight, we're not going to win the objective. We need to just surprise them with the back door, with Shenji's like, they're not going to be able to win a fight, they're not going to be able to play the objectives. So we just have to keep somebody home. So Keane was staying home on rumble the entire time. He wasn't even like doing anything. He was just afking in the middle of the base like he was an actual turret at that point. [00:29:47] Speaker A: This, the end state of this game reminded me of playing StarCraft when you've you're playing Zerg, and you broke down one entrance, and all you do the entire rest of the game is you just keep building units and shove them down that entrance, and you hope that the other team can't do anything, and they're just stuck in their base, and they get tired and give up. [00:30:07] Speaker C: There are, what, like, three backdoor attempts? I'm pretty sure. [00:30:10] Speaker A: Yes, it was. There may have been. There were additional ones that did not pan out. [00:30:16] Speaker E: As the drag. It was. Was it? Dragon soul was spawning. He was thinking, oh, they're gonna overcome it for dragon Soul. I'm not gonna be to do it. He literally walked into Faker right outside of, like, redbush on bot side. [00:30:27] Speaker A: Walking a faker. Oh, my God. He's that good. [00:30:31] Speaker F: What? [00:30:32] Speaker A: Faker doesn't play for Gingi. You said. [00:30:33] Speaker C: You just said he. [00:30:34] Speaker E: Oh, yeah, Chovy. I mean, we're just getting the series mixed up. There's too many games. Yeah, yeah. So he walked right up to Chovy, and Chovy just, like, three shot him real fast, and that was just like, at that point, I'm just like, okay, can we just, like, speed the game up? We know it's over at this point. And there was still, like, another, like, five minutes of game on top of this as well. [00:30:52] Speaker C: Afterwards, Ben wanted it so bad. Like, so that guy did not care for his life. He just wanted to scissor that nexus what he's link. Camille. [00:31:08] Speaker A: Okay, so this is gonna be a very different show. I get it. [00:31:11] Speaker B: Please, can we change the subject now? [00:31:14] Speaker C: But it was a back and forth game four. It could have gone either way. But those team fights, some of the most fun team fights of the entire tournament, just cause they were both scrappy. There were so many kills, so many tight moments where it's like two people walk away from the fight, or it's a prolonged fight, and there's, like, a delayed ace, but by the time it happens, everyone's respawning, so you can't really get a baron or anything big off of it. So it's just like, well, get ready for the next fight. Um, definitely. I think a fun and satisfying ending to the. The series and ending to MSI as a whole. So shout outs to Gen G. Any final thoughts before we talk more about Billy? Billy and kind of how their journey was, like, going up in the lower bracket. [00:31:57] Speaker A: This could have been a 30. I actually think despite everything we've said, gen G was the better team overall. Yeah. And BLG was actually very lucky to pick up their one win they were more. They were maybe as unlucky to not win game four, but still, I think draft was really good overall from Gen G. They played it really well individually. They were mostly on point. Cannon was fucking incredible. Kenny was so good. Kenny was my. Was right up there with Lehens for. [00:32:26] Speaker E: Can I. Can I throw a question out to the class? [00:32:29] Speaker C: Go for it. [00:32:30] Speaker F: Is Kenny. [00:32:30] Speaker E: I think Hawk wants jungler of all time, dude. [00:32:34] Speaker F: I think he was before this tournament. [00:32:35] Speaker E: Okay, I was wondering. I've been saying it for a while now, but, like, I wasn't sure if, like, I mean, we can we say, like, canyon is the goat jungler now? [00:32:45] Speaker C: I like contracts is right there. [00:32:51] Speaker A: Guys, ever. You guys still remember Omar God, right? [00:32:55] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:32:55] Speaker C: Oh, I like to forget. [00:32:57] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [00:32:58] Speaker E: Let me tell you. [00:32:59] Speaker A: Wow. Wow. [00:33:00] Speaker C: I might be the only person in the entire discord that could answer that. What season? What split Omar God played? Yeah. [00:33:07] Speaker A: I'm actually kind of impressed. Like, you threw out. That was not correct. [00:33:11] Speaker F: Was I even, like, born yet? [00:33:13] Speaker D: Was I even born. [00:33:16] Speaker C: Wait, what? When was it that? [00:33:17] Speaker A: It was pre Covid. Are you sure? [00:33:20] Speaker C: We're gonna check this later, but it's not relevant to the conversation. No, it doesn't matter. We're moving on. So, Canyon, great jungler Lehens, the picket player of the series. But that is finals in a nutshell. Gen G, take it. [00:33:35] Speaker E: Summer 17. [00:33:36] Speaker A: I told you, bro. It was in doubt. That's fair. It was in doubt. [00:33:47] Speaker C: Amazing. All right, well, Gen G, they had their two series this week. Both were against BLG. We covered those. So now let's talk a little bit more about BLG's journey, because they also had the lower bracket match against t one that they were able to pick up. So, Mizelle, talk to me about Billy. Billy, as a whole, do you think this was, like. I know they didn't win, but was this still a successful tournament for them? When you look at the grand scheme of how they matched up against the other international teams. [00:34:11] Speaker D: Yeah. I mean, I think this team has long expectations. Like, long term expectations, I guess, because they. I've had a really good mental about everything. BLG as a whole is committed to these five. And I think we've seen a ton of, like, you think just back to the last MSI before this one, right? Like, yes, they made it to finals, but, my God, the way they got there was not the same BLG. We saw this MSI, and while they still lost the gen g, and we still saw a lot of the failings for LPL, in terms of the drafting, adaptation, and that kind of stuff, I still think this solidification that BLG is our top team and can be a concurrent frontrunner in the LPL is there. Right. I think they showed a lot of strength in terms of the way that they approach the game, the playstyles that they have. Even if it didn't show up in this tournament, I think it showed up in the t one game. And I think the thing you can tell about BLG is they have some serious grit to them. They will always fight out a game. They will always try to find a way back in. And I think we even saw that in the finals, too. [00:35:14] Speaker C: I don't think I. There's maybe like one moment where I was like, okay, I think they've identified the game's over. And that was in the finals. So they just kind of threw out a Hail mary lawsuit. That was it. But in general, you're right. They just never stopped fighting. They never stopped looking for angles, looking for ways to get in. And it did get them that win in the t one series. That was a five game series against the t one that a lot of folks saying, like, probably the weakest we've seen t one look in a while. I know it's still top three at an international event. Look how weak they are. Right. Uh, but just, you know, compared to their worlds form at least. Cause that was the most recent we saw them at internationals where they, in fact won. If you've been sleeping under a rock, blg were still strong enough to take that one. [00:35:54] Speaker D: I just have one last little thing. I think there. There's a different shift in, like, that growth. I was talking about the team. Whereas last year the big focus was, oh, how well are you gow doing? Which he didn't do that great, but how good has been doing, right. The solo lanes. I think this split specifically, especially in regular season, especially in their win in finals in LPL and a lot of MSI. It was really about the newer guys. It was about Shun, it was about elk, and it was about on. And I think that's a really cool kind of differentiation of like, the era of last year compared to this year, where I think that spotlight is shifting a bit. Even though bin still holds a lot of spotlight. There are now five spotlights. It's not two spotlights and three guys hidden in the background. [00:36:41] Speaker C: Yeah. On in particular, I loved his orn support, man. Like, the Orn Centilanes were so fun to watch. One of my favorite players on that champion. And, yeah, I think that's something that we've heard teams and players reference in the past. We talked about this podcast recently. I know Wippo was saying that in one of his interviews that, like, the best teams in the world usually have four or five players that can carry the game. So I think that BLG is setting up a lot of their very young players to have that kind of career and that kind of impact in their game. So hopeful for them going forward. How? I don't know if you can actually answer this one, Mazelle, but you do. You're a little more in touch with, like, the LPL audience. How much has it got to sting, though, to lose at home? Like, that's got to be so heartbreaking, dude. [00:37:24] Speaker D: Yeah, for sure. I think the worst part is, please, please don't do this if you're. You're fans of players. But the. The worst part is, is they're getting ripped apart. Right? They. They all decided to take a bike ride back to their hotel to kind of, like, clear their minds. You know, get, like, just have kind of different from being in front of computers, being in front of your phones, like, stuff like that. And they're just being, oh, why are you enjoying a bike ride back to the hotel room? I can't believe you do this. They went out for, like, japanese barbecue or something like that, and they're just getting ripped apart. I can't believe you got to eat after you lose that. It's like, come on, that's just dumb. Don't be that kind of fan. [00:38:03] Speaker C: Players that make it to an international finals and lose do not deserve to be punished. [00:38:08] Speaker D: They do not. [00:38:10] Speaker C: Yeah, but, yeah. Well, excited to see BlG continue forward. They've had a string of pretty deep runs, international events, so they were able to topple t one. And now we're just going to take some time to kind of go through the rest of the teams that were present this week and give a brief overview of their journey in the lower bracket to close out at MSI. T one had a few series. Actually, we got to see them a lot of times because anybody who won the first round, if they wanted to make it to finals, had to win a bunch of series in a row. T one were able to topple team liquid, topple g two. They did lose to Blg, but they made Blg work for it. And like I had said before, t one feel like they're probably the weakest we've seen them in the last year, but that isn't to say that they're a bad team. We also have heard, I don't think we mentioned it earlier. We have heard some rumors, some reports that there's potential risk concerns from Faker that were happening throughout the tournament that he was not vocal or public about, but what's kind of happening behind the scenes. So hopefully he's able to rest and recover and be ready for summer split. Mazelle. I think it was us. We're talking about it. Or maybe it was Desarix, our other roommate. But t one aren't really going to get a break because they're going to. I mean, it was spring split, MSI summer split. I know that t one is participating in other events happening in the summer, so, like, they're just going to be going back to back to back. And I hope that they have time to actually recover because a player like Faker, who had to bench himself in, you know, not that long ago due to wrist concerns, I am a little worried if they try and push through that, what the team might look like as they are preparing for a run in summer split to go to worlds. So. But, I mean, they made quick work of t one and g two, so at least they still got that right. We tl got one game. Hey, let's go. G two did not look as convincing. So I actually want to take that time to then pivot. Unless there's other thoughts on t one. I'm just trying to do kind of broad strokes here for the teams that didn't make it to that finals. But any final thoughts on t one from anybody else on the cast? [00:40:07] Speaker E: Guma is really good. I thought he was. I thought he was the best ad at this tournament. [00:40:13] Speaker A: I felt that t one's failures were not necessarily an individual players, except for Faker, maybe just for a moment, not being the greatest player of any game ever on the planet. And the team is too good everywhere else to have lost as convincingly as they did, even when Faker is underperforming. And I think a lot of that came down to draft. They drafted really well leading up to the series that they got shit canned in. And yeah, that's a struggle. It's something that's followed Koma everywhere, too. He gets his teams really, really far, and then they get one really bad draft series, and that's it. Bye bye. But, I mean, sometimes faker still carries despite that. Right? It just didn't happen this time. So I think this is a team that's still top three in the world. I think this team could have been the one in the finals. I think this team could have won the whole thing if they'd gotten this one part as perfect as Gen G and PlG did. [00:41:14] Speaker C: How Chad was that drafting, though? [00:41:16] Speaker D: Yeah, driving game was banger hog. [00:41:18] Speaker C: It's not like you wanted to hop in. [00:41:19] Speaker F: Yeah, I kind of disagree, actually. I mean, I think t one definitely has like, you know, problems with draft sometimes and everything like that. And I do think they're top, probably like a top three team in the world still. But I'll be honest, like this, to me, seems like, you know, steve was referencing the weakest t one that we've seen in the last year or so. And I actually kind of agree because I do think they have some flaws in their gameplay as well. I mean, t one got out lane swapped and out macroed by g two. Tl pushed them as well. Like, I think t one has fundamental game plan issues where when t one's not able to play t one's game, all the players look a little off. And while we know how good individually they can be, it felt like they were not able to bring together like a cohesive, particularly early game plan. I mean, like. Like they swept g two and in all three games I felt like they played worse, but they were just like better players. So they won the games, but like, g two consistently got gold advantages in the early game because they were more intelligent. [00:42:17] Speaker C: G two's strength is definitely in their early game and I think t one's greatest strength is their trigger pull. If you make a mistake. They are so good at as a team, knowing how to punish that it's not just like, oh, we caught somebody out and now we're going to do our thing. It's like, no, all five members kind of feel like they know what to do after that. [00:42:36] Speaker F: And t one had better objective setups, better trigger pull. But that part of the game hasn't changed in the last year. What has changed is lane swaps. What has changed is early rotations and philosophy about experience on solo lanes and gold on ad carries and stuff like that, which g two had a much better understanding of. And that's just one example. But yeah, I honestly think t one, I'm a little concerned for them going forward because I felt like they got pushed by stuff that, I don't know, they shouldn't get pushed by. So we'll see. I'm kind of curious. [00:43:10] Speaker C: I'm hoping that a lot of it is just the wrist. I hope so, too. [00:43:13] Speaker F: I mean, I definitely badger. Yeah. [00:43:14] Speaker E: So counter points. This is about as well as they did. [00:43:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:18] Speaker E: Last MSI last year, and I'm not too worried about it. And a figure needs to take some time off. The poby iteration of t one is. Is not good. So let's. Let's see how this goes. You said this is the worst that t one's looked in a while. I t one played with povy last year. [00:43:39] Speaker F: This is the worst they've looked since then. [00:43:43] Speaker A: Which in t one years is forever, because they always look good. Right. Their down periods is, like, a total of a year and a half of time since Faker stepped in. [00:43:53] Speaker C: I mean, they. They have miss international events. They have missed, you know, LCK finals. But it's. Even when they're missing, it's not like they're bottom of LCK because of that. You know, they're still. [00:44:05] Speaker F: Yeah, it's funny saying I'm worried for t one when they just came third place at MSI, but, you know, but. [00:44:11] Speaker C: As just kind of the expectation of the team and also, you know what? It's kind of. [00:44:17] Speaker A: They're world champs. [00:44:18] Speaker C: It's a segue to go into it, because I was about to say and disrespect some of the teams that they beat by saying, you know, they beat western teams, you know, in that lower bracket. They beat tl and g two. But let's talk about g two now, because I think it's time we address the elephant in the room. What happened to g two? We were hyping them up as, like, they might have a shot. They're looking really good after that first series. It looked incredible for the week. And then 30 loss to t one. Jax, I want to hear your thoughts on g two to start us off here. [00:44:50] Speaker B: Then we got to start with. They also absolutely fucking crushed top esports. There's nothing to talk about in that series. It was the most one sided series, I think, in the entire tournament. [00:45:01] Speaker D: Like. [00:45:01] Speaker F: Yeah, I think so. And that's saying something if you're not counting play ins, definitely. Yeah. [00:45:06] Speaker B: And that's saying something, considering we saw Gen g fanatic. [00:45:10] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:45:11] Speaker E: Oh, yeah. [00:45:12] Speaker A: I wish I could not. [00:45:13] Speaker D: What was the score? What was the time again? For na? [00:45:16] Speaker B: For that. [00:45:17] Speaker C: For na. [00:45:18] Speaker A: Hey. [00:45:18] Speaker C: Hey. We don't talk. I was gonna say, let's not mention the tl series. At the beginning, it was. [00:45:23] Speaker B: It was very brutal. So that set them up for the rematch with t one. And as you guys mentioned, it was a 30. But honestly, this felt so much like g two got in their own heads. I hated. Yikes. Champion choices in both game one and two. Game one, he plays Kha'zix on a comp with Jax, Draven, and Leblanc. You don't need more damage out of the jungle. And he was fucking useless. [00:45:54] Speaker C: But think about it. It's damage overload comp, right? [00:45:59] Speaker A: Yeah. You just overkill them so that when they spawn again, they actually have less. [00:46:03] Speaker E: We talked about it. Kind of crazy for people who can carry. Surely one of them can carry the game, right? [00:46:08] Speaker C: Mm hmm. And somebody's gonna kill Sejuani. We're not gonna do the math to figure out who, but somebody is gonna kill Sejuani. [00:46:14] Speaker B: And it was. [00:46:15] Speaker A: It'll be the other guy. [00:46:15] Speaker B: It was really one sided because Yikel couldn't get any lane going. [00:46:20] Speaker C: No. And also, the poppy pick felt like it was like, oh, yeah, into Kalista and maybe Camille. Cause we know that they'll, like, run the Camille bot lane, but then it's the Renata glass, which poppy can't really do anything against. So, like, it wasn't even, like, really a kill lane in the bot lane. So it just kind of fell apart for g two there. [00:46:39] Speaker B: But then. So they're like, okay, well, the kha'zix didn't work. Let's put yike on Fiego in a comp with Urgot, Aurelion, Sol, and Draven. Again, they didn't need more damage out of the jungle. And it meant that mickey, the only frontline on the team, was a nautilus who got melted instantly. Game three, it felt like g two figured it out. They put yike on Ivern, and this game was close for a long time. But eventually, t one was just better. [00:47:10] Speaker A: They felt so unprepared. [00:47:12] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. That's my problem here, is it felt like game three was the g two. We should have seen all three games. And had we seen that form of g two all three games, they would have won at least one of them, and it would have been at least a four game series. [00:47:26] Speaker A: Big agree. [00:47:27] Speaker C: They do it a bit. [00:47:29] Speaker A: It was so different from their previous series, too, right. Where it felt like they came into that last series, like, against top esports. Bro, we own you. We know every move you're gonna make. We are fully prepared for anything you're gonna, like, throw into our game plan. Fuck you. [00:47:42] Speaker C: That last series, g two walked onto that stage, or dicks had already been there five minutes. You know, it's like that kind of game this time around. It just wasn't the same. They just didn't really show up. [00:47:52] Speaker E: I. So their dicks were still in the analogy. I don't know where this allergies. [00:48:01] Speaker D: They were still in the. [00:48:02] Speaker B: I have not read this manga before. [00:48:04] Speaker D: Oh no. [00:48:05] Speaker C: Moneyball fans. Come on. [00:48:07] Speaker E: I know what you're talking about. But no, I will never say anything. I think g two fell victim to the have I ever given the brick wall theory? And so you see a brick wall in front of you and you try and figure out ways to go around it. You go over it, I go left through it, underneath it, whatever. [00:48:26] Speaker A: So inspect brick wall. [00:48:29] Speaker E: Inspect brick wall. And basically they think. I think they fell victim to the idea that after like 18 minutes, the best way for them to get through that brick wall is to just smash their fucking head into it as hard as they can. [00:48:42] Speaker C: Oh. [00:48:42] Speaker E: Over and over again to try and break through it. And either you're gonna break through it or you're gonna basically like kill, kill yourself or like die or something like that. And it's gonna be one of those that it's like they are not able to break through that brick wall because they don't know how to think to get around the brick wall or a different way to it. [00:49:04] Speaker A: So can you where this is just an analogy. I kind of come out without it. Nowhere. [00:49:12] Speaker E: Yeah. [00:49:12] Speaker A: An experience. No, no, this is an observation I just want to clarify and the FBI. Yeah. [00:49:20] Speaker E: Thank you, mister. Yeah, yeah. Logan. No, no worries about anything like that going on. What? [00:49:29] Speaker A: Don't inspect Logan. [00:49:30] Speaker C: Brick walls. Agent. Yeah. [00:49:32] Speaker A: You don't know your FBI agents name? [00:49:33] Speaker E: Yeah, Logan's my FBI agent. [00:49:34] Speaker C: Cool. [00:49:35] Speaker D: Dude. [00:49:35] Speaker A: Mike's Chovy. [00:49:38] Speaker C: It's probably Alfari, but it's just basically I don't think. [00:49:42] Speaker E: Okay, sorry, go ahead. [00:49:44] Speaker C: No, I was just gonna say get us out of that one. Yes, it was a brick wall for t one, but I think props to g two where it's due. Their tops series was incredible. That one they did crush and that's what I think made the t one series. So surprising to me was that we had that kind of 180 from them, 30 then get three zero'd in a fairly fast series. I mean, like 27 minutes isn't like the fastest game, but it's kind of on the. [00:50:11] Speaker F: Nah, 27 minutes you kind of got wrecked. I feel like if you're sub 30. [00:50:15] Speaker C: Okay, the other two at least it was like, you know, around the 35, but yeah, yeah. In game one it was also like a ten k gold lead or something crazy like that. So g two had to bow out. We had hopes, especially after that top series, that they would be able to make a deeper run, but they could not. So let's talk about the remaining teams, then. We've covered the teams that were in the finals. We covered the hopefuls that were essentially t one and g two, which leaves only two teams left that we saw play any games this last week. So to give final thoughts on the one series from each of them that we saw. Hawk, we got you on the podcast full time now, and we're going to give you an easy one to start off. Talk to me about Team Liquid, the last na hope at MSI and how this week looked, and then just kind of like a snapshot of the tournament as a whole, whole, how we feel about them overall. [00:51:07] Speaker F: Yeah, you know, appreciate you letting me cope for na, you know, first full time episode. You know, nice softball, but honestly, like, I think Team Liquid should be really happy with how they performed and. But not just happy. I think Team Liquid should be happy with how they performed. They performed and then also see the gaps that they might have had in their games to be able to take that forward. Right. Because Team Liquid, to me, they got as far as they did. They beat fnatic. They took a game off of t one because they recognized that they were an incomplete team and that they had things to work on, and they tried to tackle it, and they didn't tackle enough of it. By the time they got to t one, they ran into the brick wall. Hey, they took a game. They actually made t one work for it a lot. Right. But it wasn't quite enough. And then, you know, I mean, guys like Apa yan, they're grinders. I want Team Liquid to take that series and say, all right, now what do we need to do to continue working, going through into summer and into worlds? Because I think that's the big takeaway from TL, where they had a game plan that was just incomplete. They couldn't quite overcome all their individual deficits, but they tried something, and it almost worked. And it worked for a game. [00:52:19] Speaker B: I would even say two of their three losses against t one, they showed signs of life. Right? [00:52:26] Speaker F: I wouldn't even say three of three. Honestly, like, core JJ, hey, he might have hit level six at 20 minutes, but, like, they. [00:52:31] Speaker C: They tried. [00:52:32] Speaker A: You know? [00:52:32] Speaker B: Like, they tried, I would argue based on results. [00:52:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:52:38] Speaker F: Okay. [00:52:39] Speaker C: All right. [00:52:39] Speaker B: Team Liquid was the fifth best team at this tournament when the expectation was 6th or 7th. [00:52:46] Speaker C: Yeah, they did better. [00:52:48] Speaker E: That's fair. [00:52:49] Speaker A: Once fly got dumped out, it made TL's, like, potential look so much worse. And so I think that did help a little bit, the narrative setting, and they still exceeded everything. [00:53:00] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:53:01] Speaker C: Yeah. A lot of people are, like, especially EU fans. Like, oh, fanatics gonna crush them, too. [00:53:06] Speaker A: Like, yeah, get dicked on EU. [00:53:09] Speaker F: Dude, I got wrecked by TL. I mean, honestly, like, TL was the better team that day. So I think the big thing, I. [00:53:16] Speaker A: Mean, always has been. [00:53:17] Speaker F: Duffy, you talk about expectations for TL. I feel like this reinforces my personal belief of, like, the team vibes and mental state going into a tournament is the single most important thing because clearly flyquest mental boomed in some capacity. Right. Whereas TL, again, like, I want to reiterate, it seemed like they were really, like, working hard and in a positive fashion going into that tournament. And while it just wasn't quite enough to make them good enough to beat one of the best teams in the world, it got them some results and it has a performance that they can then build upon. [00:53:49] Speaker C: And I'll say in games one and two, there were moments that it felt like TL could win. Game one, they were behind, but they were on Dragon Soul. Point or drag. Yeah, they. They were. They were going for Dragon Soul. They had an a soul that was, like, scaling and looking pretty good. If they get that dragon soul and they can just get the a soul to, like, more stacks, there's a good chance they can close out. Now. Game two, they had a lead. Samira was, like, kind of a problem for t one to deal with. But then, like we had highlighted before, t one is so good. You make that one mistake, and they will just end a game off of that one mistake that you made. And that's what happened there. Game three, they actually got it in game four. We don't talk about game four, but everything else, like, there's. There was a legitimate world where TL could have actually, you know, picked up at least one of those first two games, if not both of them, but clearly not the world. T one is just too good. They're not going to give TL those opportunities. [00:54:45] Speaker F: They were small mistakes away from a 30 in their favor. [00:54:49] Speaker C: So, yeah, just, you know, maybe multiple small mistakes away, but, yeah, I mean. [00:54:53] Speaker A: Piling them on top of each other. [00:54:55] Speaker C: Like, there was. [00:54:57] Speaker F: There was a line where they could have 30 t one if, like, say, five moments go differently, which is like, that's not that bad, you know? [00:55:05] Speaker C: Yeah. And also, we took a game off of t one. We took a game off t one. We don't talk about the first match in the bracket stage. We only look at the last week. [00:55:17] Speaker D: Dude, you're so based for that. [00:55:20] Speaker E: No. [00:55:21] Speaker C: G two. I still think that they would probably run tl if they. If we had matched, but I'm sad that we didn't get that match. That would have been really fun to see tl versus g two, but it. [00:55:30] Speaker F: Would have been funny if after beating fnatic we had to just go play g two eu gauntlet. [00:55:35] Speaker B: I'm so glad we didn't because that was MSI last year and it was miserable. [00:55:40] Speaker C: Yeah, it was. Yeah. That was quite a silly format. Thankfully, this year we didn't have the same issues. Any final thoughts from anybody on the cast about team liquid thoughts of them going into summer? [00:55:51] Speaker D: I'm excited. [00:55:52] Speaker A: Go. [00:55:52] Speaker D: Yeah, go for it. I'm excited to see what they bring into summer. I think they all have really good head on their shoulders. [00:55:59] Speaker A: I'm excited for this team having gotten this experience together and I think they could develop even further. This will finally be a full year of APA actually play on the team halfway through next split. So we've got like. [00:56:15] Speaker C: Two international tournaments and hasn't even played a full two. [00:56:19] Speaker A: Yes. So he's gonna be the next big thing. He already is, to be honest. [00:56:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:56:26] Speaker A: Stoked. Yapton, America. Oh, yapped in my Yapton. [00:56:30] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. [00:56:32] Speaker A: Yeah. We should use that from now. I'm just saying. I'm so excited. They're going to kick ass. They're going to be one of our world's contenders. I think they'll probably be top three. I don't know if I can guarantee them winning the whole split. That was a bit of a shock and they just happened to get, I think, very hot at the right time. But they've got great mental. As long as they can keep themselves from booming and they can improve gradually throughout this whole split with best of series, I think they're going to be well prepped for another convincing world's run. Is it going to be deep? I don't fucking know, but it's going to be fun. [00:57:02] Speaker F: Way too early prediction. TL will win the split. Cause they won't mental bloom like flyquest and cloud nine arc. [00:57:08] Speaker D: Let's go. [00:57:09] Speaker A: Way too early prediction tl win worlds. Talk to me in 50 years. Yeah. [00:57:15] Speaker C: I didn't say which year they win worlds. Okay. [00:57:17] Speaker A: I did not. [00:57:17] Speaker C: I like that. Way too early prediction. I get it, I get it. Speaking of, you did mention something there. I don't remember who said it, but important to note before we talk about the last team that the top two performing regions get an extra seat at world. So it is, of course, Lck and Lpl. But G two were close. If they had just won another series, they could have been in that conversation. But it will be Korea and China. Which leads us to the last of the chinese teams at MSI. Top esports from the LPL bowed out earlier than maybe they would have liked. I assume they would have liked, and definitely not looking the best doing so. So, Duffy, for the final time, at least for the foreseeable future, talk to me about a team at an international event, top esports. [00:58:04] Speaker A: Oh, man, I'm so happy I got this one too, because I get to flame lpl on the way out the door. Top esports was a lot like Kangas when he sat next to you. Mizzell trying to watch the finals. Very sweepy when they got schwepped by g two esports to end their entire run. And in fact, I don't think any team benefited more from the MSI format change than top esports, because BLG failing to win finals completely eclipsed the fact that top esports was eliminated so hard, so quickly by an EU team on their home. [00:58:39] Speaker B: Not just that they got eliminated by an EU team on their home, so. But that Jackie, love, and Mako, which were in the discussion for best bot Lane in the world going into this tournament, got fucking Giga blasted by Hans and Mickey. [00:58:54] Speaker A: I know we talked about the previous series last week. I don't know. I wasn't there, but I'm assuming so, because it was one of the series that happened. This team lost three two to Gen G and then proceeded to get butt blasted by G two esports. And I talked about it already a little bit. This was a series that G two was so prepped for, top had zero answers. They had no clue what to do. They were played off the rift from minute one. Like, I don't think a single one of these games is really that competitive. The best one was game three, where top kind of got back into it a little bit. They weren't so far behind in everything at, like, the 20 minutes mark as they were in the other games, and it didn't matter. I don't even know what to point to. I think 369 had, honestly, a terrible MSI. Really, really bad. We saw threes pretty much across the board from him in any of the series. He had one good game, I think, in the entirety of MSi. Tian. Yeah, that's the Tian I know and remember from worlds competitions. Let's go. Did not have a good time. Cream is not ready, and I do not think should be a starting mid laner on any team that ends up at world's level comp. He's not there yet. He might just need time to cook, but he's not there. He's not ready. Caps in so many ways, despite how good cream did look previously against Gen G, he got destroyed. [01:00:23] Speaker D: But how does that mean he shouldn't be out of. [01:00:26] Speaker A: You go with half and half. [01:00:28] Speaker D: Go with your takes. [01:00:29] Speaker A: He went half and half, bro. [01:00:31] Speaker E: You went half and half. I know you are. [01:00:34] Speaker A: This is so much fun. I don't think. I think cream will be back at world because I think this team is actually really good, and I don't think the G two series should be fully indicative of what this team is capable of. Because we've seen 369 be insane. We've seen Tian be the best in the world, right? Like, this is something that this team is capable of on an individual level. But holy shit, they were outclassed entirely by g two. I don't even know what to talk about here. Like, they were out, drafted, out macroed. It was, admittedly a very strange macro, but I thought top actually had a decent read on it until they face g two, and then it was like, oh, shit. Never mind. Lane swaps are hard. You're right. But they got just outplayed in every specific capacity. And you have to go back to the Gen G series to find good things to say about any of these individual members, which is wild. It is wild for a team that is considered top two, top three in the world at one point. Well, they were probably, like, top four, I think, arguably, to come into this competition and be so, so, so hard outclassed by a barely major region to. [01:01:35] Speaker C: To kind of give some. Just quick clarifying stats here. Average game time for the series, 28 minutes in the 30. And top esports, 17 kills to g 262. Seven turds to 270. Barons to three. So, like, that's just kind of the. The reality of the situation. Top down themselves, they railed. They got destroyed. I think 369 rolled a six. I would say, for this series. And everybody else, if they were rolling, were rolling threes. That's. That's how the analogy goes, right? Missile. It's like, is it a roll or, like a flip? He's either the three, the six, or the nine, right? [01:02:12] Speaker D: Dice. [01:02:12] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a dice. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Would you agree? I think three, six, nine. Rolled a six. Like, he wasn't. I don't think he was trash in this series, but he did not play well. [01:02:21] Speaker B: He rolled a three in game three. [01:02:24] Speaker A: Sure. I think he benefited a lot from the only way that top esports figured out how to play the lane swap, which was to try to feed on broken blade. And he was the kind of broken blade was, quote unquote, playing weak side, although he was also playing some champs that don't super match up with weak side, but he was playing a little bit too aggro, and top would take advantage of that. The problem is, every time they got 369 something out of it, they lost everything else around the map. It really felt more like broken blade was the bait dangling in front of top, and specifically 369 Tian. And sometimes cream would take the bait and go there, and then, boom. Rest. Maps gone. G two's outplayed. You macro, baby. [01:03:08] Speaker C: Hawk. I'm seeing some inquisitive looks. Do you have a thought after that one? [01:03:12] Speaker F: Oh, no, sorry. I was just kind of just making faces. I mean, my main thought is, yeah, like my goat. I think this series, as well as a t one series, to me, proved that g two was the second best macro team at this tournament behind gen g. Like, like I said, I think it was individual mistakes that defeated g two against t one. I mentioned that earlier. And for whatever reason, top b sports did not show up on an individual level. I do agree. I think cream is a little suspect in his play. [01:03:43] Speaker E: I actually thought he was a little. [01:03:44] Speaker F: Bit better than caps and lane phase in some of those games, but he is kind of a griefer outside of lane. And the rest of tes did not live up. I mean, I think jackie love and mako getting plowed was not on anyone's bingo card. [01:03:58] Speaker C: Kogma braum. [01:04:00] Speaker A: And I think that's a g two special. [01:04:03] Speaker C: Raven renata and got them getting wrecked. [01:04:08] Speaker F: Was crazy, because I think my expectation going in was g two might be a better macro team than tess, but test still has the better players and everywhere except for mid. And then test had the worst players, and they had the worst macro, and I was like, oh, my God, they're just. [01:04:22] Speaker C: I just want you to know, you said tests, and then you had two other opportunities to not say tests following up, and you doubled down, tripled down. Does anybody call test? [01:04:31] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:04:31] Speaker F: Cage roll. [01:04:35] Speaker C: Wow. [01:04:36] Speaker D: I would not say that. Renata is one of Mako's premier champions. He barely played at this split and also has barely played it in his career. [01:04:44] Speaker A: So is Camille one of his signature champs? [01:04:47] Speaker D: Nope. [01:04:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I think this is kind of it, and I want it. Mazzella, I want to throw you a bone here, because I want to specify what I meant when I talked about cream. I think top esports should be in the conversation for the world champion spot, and I just don't think the play that I saw from him is going to get them there. [01:05:09] Speaker F: Yeah, I think cream has flashes of individual brilliance, but I also think he has more than a healthy amount of flashes of individual griefing. [01:05:20] Speaker C: Just gotta hone it in, baby. [01:05:22] Speaker D: He's got a lot of his first ever international tournament organization called OMG, which he carried their dead body across the finish line for four years, to quote, be honest. [01:05:33] Speaker F: I, quote, be down. I just ice up. All right, he's got to ice the fuck up. [01:05:37] Speaker D: I just think my biggest qualm with this whole, like, line of processing is like, oh, he brought gen g to get five games, and he actually had a decent series in that one. But then you're also saying he's not allowed. He shouldn't be at this level of competition. I think he should be at this level of competition. I do not think he showed up, but I don't think that just because you don't show up in one series means that you shouldn't be allowed at this level of competition. [01:06:01] Speaker C: And I think that sensationalism gets views, though. [01:06:04] Speaker E: So. [01:06:04] Speaker C: Duff. [01:06:04] Speaker D: It does. And that's a lot of what has been said, which is fine. [01:06:09] Speaker A: This is what, you know, falling on the sword as I leave, you know, I'll take the slings and arrow. [01:06:16] Speaker F: Don't slip on the LPR players. [01:06:19] Speaker D: No, it's cream filled. [01:06:20] Speaker A: Thank you. He looked like he was filled. [01:06:26] Speaker D: Can we just. Did we just say the line from mister? [01:06:30] Speaker C: No, no, that was good. [01:06:31] Speaker E: I think that was an autofilt. [01:06:33] Speaker D: That was literally. [01:06:34] Speaker A: It was an autofill joke. [01:06:36] Speaker C: Oh, okay. [01:06:37] Speaker F: Dirty mind Steve here took it as something else. [01:06:41] Speaker D: Do we all remember the cult of cream line? Like, that was so banger. [01:06:46] Speaker C: What? [01:06:47] Speaker D: The cult of cream line from hysterics in the. In the call. God, it was. [01:06:51] Speaker A: There was. You know what? Let's do that. Let's shift focus slightly. Steve. Sorry, I'm hijacking. The casting teams in general for MSI were so much fucking. [01:07:00] Speaker B: Yes. [01:07:01] Speaker A: I think they really enjoyed the energy of having games every day and not having these breaks and being able to build a storyline day after day after day. And it was super cool. Yeah. I wish we had more LPL representation again. [01:07:14] Speaker C: Would have been nice. [01:07:15] Speaker D: I not going to go too far into it. Very sad about the storytelling that was done for the LPL in this MSI, but it's okay. [01:07:23] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, that's gonna happen. And I'll say it for you because I have no horse in that race, but it's just natural that if you don't have talent that covered the entire region at the international event, the storylines for the teams from said region are going to be weaker, but the storylines. [01:07:37] Speaker D: Are that they're really good at the video game. All right. That's all you need. [01:07:40] Speaker C: They're really good. [01:07:41] Speaker D: They're really good guys. [01:07:44] Speaker C: That's true. Definitely felt that lacking as well. So hopefully, future international events, we will have representative representatives from the casket team of each major region to cover their games and teams and just help out. Everybody have unified narratives going forward. So. Yeah. All right, that's all the teams that we got to witness this last week. One more shout out to Gen G for taking MSI 2024. Chovy Church is in session. He finally gets it. And props to him. Props to LCK for bringing it back home for the first time in seven years. [01:08:22] Speaker D: If they qualify for playoffs, they're auto at worlds. [01:08:25] Speaker C: Yep. [01:08:25] Speaker B: I was gonna say almost certainly being the first broadcast, the first team to. [01:08:29] Speaker D: Qualify for worlds pending making it to playoffs. [01:08:34] Speaker C: Is that how funny and funny or just. [01:08:37] Speaker A: No. [01:08:38] Speaker F: No slot. But how funny would it be if Gen G. [01:08:45] Speaker B: That would be really funny. [01:08:47] Speaker E: I think given. Given the fact that fear x, who just played c nine, is the contender. Because they're 7th. [01:08:58] Speaker F: They're like, the dankest timeline, though. [01:09:04] Speaker C: International misses the next. [01:09:08] Speaker D: Oh, no. [01:09:09] Speaker E: Toby gets, like, arrested in mid July. [01:09:11] Speaker F: For some petty crime and, like, I'm. [01:09:14] Speaker E: Just gonna stick my hands up on this one. Call me crazy. I think Gen G will be all right in Korea. [01:09:22] Speaker F: You're supposed to leave the hot takes for Duffy. [01:09:25] Speaker E: Yeah, yeah. [01:09:26] Speaker A: Wait, I got this. I got this. [01:09:28] Speaker E: Bad Duffy and said, hey, I think they'll be all right. [01:09:33] Speaker A: I think Gen G may have what it takes to win the Lck. Gentlemen, I need you to just calm down. Stop screaming at me, stop making faces at me. But I think Gen G could potentially even be among many of the other teams in contention to be favorites for the LCK next. [01:10:00] Speaker C: Oh, I thought you were going to say to win. [01:10:03] Speaker F: I see why he's getting kicked off the show now. If he's got takes like this. [01:10:09] Speaker C: How are they gonna take worlds? Right? Yeah. [01:10:11] Speaker A: Stop doing. [01:10:13] Speaker D: Why are you booing me? [01:10:14] Speaker C: I'm right. Savages. All right, well, that is MSI, everybody. What a tournament. How's everyone's sleep schedule going, by the way? Can we just have, like, a therapy session to, like, close out the episode? [01:10:30] Speaker D: Yeah, oh, wow. [01:10:31] Speaker C: I guess I'm the only one struggling right now. Geez. [01:10:34] Speaker F: I mean, mine was. I'm going to keep it a buck with you, Steve. Mine was already terrible, and now it's, like, slightly better than it was, so, you know. [01:10:41] Speaker C: All right, well, I'm happy for you. Yeah. Thanks, man. Happy to have badger back on another episode. Two in a row. You had to come onto gloat. And we had a bet last week's episode, we did Gen g one. So what does that mean? We have to do now? [01:10:53] Speaker E: So this Thursday, I believe we will make it on. I think this episode should be up by then, but we will make an announcement post in the discord, and I'll probably tweet it. You'll probably. Or something like that. And we are gonna watch the lovely banger. That is the 94 minutes and 18 2nd game between sktt one and jennair. Green wings. [01:11:20] Speaker D: Love that. For you. [01:11:21] Speaker F: Beautiful. [01:11:22] Speaker E: From 2018. [01:11:24] Speaker A: No. [01:11:25] Speaker B: Are you guys gonna watch party this in the discord so that the listeners can join II? [01:11:32] Speaker C: Five kills for. Oh, my. [01:11:35] Speaker F: Brook. [01:11:40] Speaker D: Yep. [01:11:42] Speaker A: Bro, they are full build and still just farming. [01:11:44] Speaker B: Yep. [01:11:45] Speaker C: So you're gonna be okay. So. So, Badger, we gotta decide, though, because there were two ways we were considering doing this live right now. There's number one is we just watch the 90 minutes. I think we're gonna, like, kind of cast it either way. [01:11:59] Speaker F: Yeah. [01:12:00] Speaker C: If we watch the full 90 minutes, it's gonna be a shit show and much sillier, but would be an even bigger shit show is apparently the, you know, like, you can watch the highlight videos of games. It's just the teamfights and objectives and stuff. And it's usually, like, 1015 minutes. Apparently, the highlight video is, like, 30 minutes, and we could just watch that. And I have to play by play for the entire time. [01:12:22] Speaker F: That sounds like more of a purgatory. [01:12:24] Speaker E: If I'm being worse than I will. [01:12:27] Speaker D: Be on it, I don't know. [01:12:28] Speaker C: I'm not getting the full context of the game. Maybe we'll do that as, like, next year's thing. [01:12:32] Speaker E: If we had to do that for something like that, I feel like that would have to have a little bit more setup leading into it rather than this. [01:12:41] Speaker C: Okay, we'll just do the full night. [01:12:43] Speaker E: We just do the full 95. [01:12:44] Speaker C: But I was really hoping we could not do that. [01:12:46] Speaker A: I think you guys should do the full 90 minutes. You should stream it, and that donation should determine how you cast it for the next 30 seconds. Or just the topic you have to talk about. Oh, yes. [01:13:00] Speaker C: And then we have to do an. [01:13:01] Speaker F: AMA for the duration of the game. [01:13:05] Speaker C: That would make it way more bearable. [01:13:07] Speaker E: Yeah, I figure, yeah, there's gonna be a lot of bullshitting that goes on during this, just given that there's. [01:13:13] Speaker A: You guys are gonna get to know each other really well. [01:13:18] Speaker C: There's my gonna be session. Unpack it. [01:13:22] Speaker A: This is just going to be a 94 minutes patreon episode. [01:13:27] Speaker C: We'll upload it as a normal Patreon episode. That'll be next week's bullshittery. Speaking of, thank you for tuning in. Thank you for the patrons, for supporting the podcast, for supporting the episodes. If you do support, you unlock a lot of fun stuff on the Patreon, including our bullshittery episodes, which are about, like, 20 minutes before we go live. Thank you to everybody for coming on. And a big thank you to Duffy. You're going to have one more episode next week. But that was the last time we hear your sultry voice for an intro and the last time I hear you talk and break down a team's performance, at least until I convince you to come back as a guest somewhere down the line in summer. Cause I'm sure we'll get you in at least one point, right? [01:14:02] Speaker A: Yeah. If CLG comes back, I will be here. Oh, guaranteed. [01:14:06] Speaker C: I got some bad news on that front. We might be waiting a while, so you're gonna have many. [01:14:12] Speaker A: Oh, no. [01:14:13] Speaker C: Again, thank you for. For tuning in, everybody. We love you, and we'll see you next time. Bye bye. [01:14:20] Speaker E: Bye. Adios.